(Re)Building Your Leadership Identity and Brand| Katie O'Malley | Power Lounge S2E19

Discover how to break free from limiting narratives and construct a new story that propels your self-confidence and personal power.

THIS WEEK'S TOPIC & GUEST: 

What if we told you that navigating your career path and avoiding burnout was within your reach? That's the promise we're making to you today as we sit down with Katie O'Malley, founder and principal coach of EnCourage Coaching. Katie candidly shares her journey from working on political campaigns to becoming an entrepreneur, and how she had to redefine her values and refocus her career after finding herself in a work environment that negatively impacted her mental health. We delve into how she now leverages her experiences to help others navigate their own career paths.

In our insightful conversation with Katie, we dive into the world of leadership development, going beyond just titles and positions. We explore how anyone can cultivate these skills and discuss the importance of self-awareness and advocacy in leadership. Our discussion also covers the key elements of workplace culture, such as investing in employees for long-term returns and creating an environment of psychological safety that encourages innovation.

Finally, Katie enlightened us with knowledge on strategies for building confidence and advocating for ourselves in the workplace. She shares her insights from her experience with the Me Too movement and the Times Up Foundation. We rounded up the conversation by emphasizing the power of language and vocabulary in understanding our personal growth and leadership journey. This chat with Katie is bound to leave you inspired and ready to take charge of your career and leadership path. Don't miss out on this empowering episode.

LINKS
Katies' LinkedIn
Schedule A Free Consultation
Burn Out Symptoms and Signs
EnCourage Coaching
Hogan Assessment
Hogan's Development Survey
What is Narrative Theory
What Is Stockholm Syndrome
Together Digital: Elevate NatCon 2023
What Is Empathy
What Is Compassion
Atlas Of The Heart

Sponsored by: COhatch

COhatch is a new kind of shared work, social, and family space built on community. Members get access to workspace, amenities like rock walls and sports simulators, and more to live a fully integrated life that balances work, family, well-being, community, and giving back. COhatch has 31 locations open or under construction nationwide throughout Ohio, Indiana, Florida, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Georgia, and Tennessee.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to our weekly Power Lounge, your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn and I am the owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power and connections. Join the movement at wwwtogetherindigitalcom. Let's get started. In today's episode, we'll be discussing how to break free from the limiting narratives that we internalize and construct a new story that will help you propel your self-confidence and your personal power to new heights. Sounds good, right? Our guest, Katie, is going to help us get there. She's going to unveil the secrets to developing your leadership practice, Highlighting that leadership is not just about positions or titles, but skill that can cultivate can be cultivated by anyone.

Speaker 1: 1:24

We're here today with Katie O'Malley, a career coach and workplace consultant who brings 15 years of experience to the nonprofit, startup and education sectors. As the founder and principal coach of Encourage Coaching, Katie empowers individuals and businesses nationwide, guiding them to design authentic career paths, effective leadership practices and courageous workplace cultures. Leveraging evidence-based practices, Katie provides customized strategies to meet clients' needs and aspirations. Featured in Fast Company and Thrive Global, Katie's research supports unity and collaboration in the workplace. Katie, thank you so much for being with us here today.

Speaker 2: 2:05

Amy, thank you so much for the invitation to be here. I'm really excited to connect with your community and audience.

Speaker 1: 2:11

Absolutely, absolutely, when great things come together. I would love to dig a little bit more. You've got a great bio. You've done some amazing work. I would like to get a little bit more about your personal career path and journey and what got you here today.

Speaker 2: 2:27

For sure, for sure, I'm up until about 10, not even 10 years ago, maybe five years ago was a bit of a career nomad. I went to college, participated in all the student leadership activities and options down at Miami of Ohio for those of you tuning in from Ohio I was a political science major. I was a political science major because I wanted to make a difference in the world and create meaningful change, have a positive impact on folks and communities. But I always say I minored in student activities. So part of sorority and fraternity life, the Greek community, homecoming, parents weekend, all of those things. I always knew I had an interest in supporting students in their career and leadership development because my experience had been so positive when I started out after graduation.

Speaker 2: 3:23

I have graduated in an election year in 2004. So, coming up on, we were talking about the same in my 20-year college reunion was hired to work on John Kerry's campaign for president, was in Minneapolis, minnesota, for that, up until the point where I became an entrepreneur, it was the hardest I had ever worked in my life. It was that campaign. When we got to the end of it and the outcome was not for our candidate, what I realized is I'd be spending a whole lot of time bouncing around from place to place not quite knowing where I was going to land next. There was an element of security that was missing for me, and so I transitioned into the nonprofit sector Again that idea of making positive impact, positively creating change in communities and so moved out to New York City, worked for the Children's Defense Fund and the Innocence Project. Very difficult to work in New York City on a nonprofit salary to live in there.

Speaker 2: 4:29

So was there for about three years before I returned back to Chicago, which is my home. I was working for the AIDS Foundation of Chicago, again another nonprofit, doing fundraising and development work, mostly focused in on special events. And while I knew the work that I had done at the Innocence Project, the Children's Defense Fund and the AIDS Foundation of Chicago mattered, I felt really disconnected from the community that we were serving and instead was really mostly working with donors and funders most of the time, instead of visiting with a career coach or a career counselor. I decided that this kind of helping profession, social services profession was just not for me and I transitioned into commercial real estate and had I chatted with someone in the Career Centering College or decided to hire someone before making that shift, they might have said, hey, there seems to be a misalignment in values here. You might want to explore that before you jump in headfirst. And on the very first day working in commercial real estate, I knew it wasn't for me, but I was 28. I had just abandoned what I had known and been good at. I'm also not a quitter. When I make a commitment to something, I go all in and stuck around for about four years.

Speaker 2: 5:58

During those four years, as we're starting to talk more candidly now about mental health. During those four years, being in an environment that was in such misalignment with my values and with how I wanted to be able to show up on a daily basis, my mental health really took a hit and ended up taking a leave of absence from work for several months. And during that time I realized you know what. I can't be the only one experiencing this challenge of. I did everything that was asked of me through high school, through college, participated in activities, was a student leader, made all the right choices how am I flailing so much professionally? And that's when I decided to go back to school and actually pursue a master's degree in counseling to become a therapist, and was working at learning and working at DePaul University at that time and we have someone from DePaul on the call today, hi, joanna and it was an incredibly transformative experience for me.

Speaker 2: 7:10

And while I was going through the master's program, what I quickly learned is that insurance companies are not keen to cover conversations about work or career, because working career are not mental health diagnoses, even though our workplace and our leaders and our career can lead to burnout, and the symptoms of burnout are identical to those of anxiety, depression and post traumatic stress. So while I was finishing up the program, trying to figure out what path I wanted to take, I landed on career and leadership development in higher education. What, hired by the University of Texas at Austin, was down there for just about two years helping students, graduate students and their career and leadership development. While I was down there, realized, while I loved the work, the workplace culture there, was not a good fit for me and so packed back up, came to Chicago, was hired at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, where I did very similar work with our full time and evening, weekend MBA students, leadership coaching, course instruction, workshops, retreats, all that good stuff. And while I was there, what I realized is, while it was very much aligned with my values, I wanted these exceptional services to be accessible to everyone yeah, not just folks who attended elite business schools or ended up landing gigs with companies that have really deep pockets.

Speaker 2: 8:39

And so, with the permission of my supervisor, got an LLC for encourage coaching, put up a website, started posting on social media and my very first client was actually a former board member at the AIDS Foundation of Chicago. He had a great experience, referred me to two small business owners in his network. They had a great experience. Then folks started coming to me for career and then workplace consulting and eventually it got to the point where I was working nine to five at booth and then seeing private clients five to 9 PM, monday through Thursday, sometimes on the weekends.

Speaker 2: 9:18

And while that hustle worked for me for the first couple years and during the pandemic, after the pandemic and I or during the pandemic and after, as we're coming out of it, I'm sure a lot of folks feel the same way I did a reevaluation on how I wanted to live my life and it was not working basically 8 AM to 8 PM every day. And so in spring of 2022, I put in my resignation at the university so I could focus on building my business full time and the coaching practice full time. I was turning 40 in 2022 and my partner was very supportive. He's like, if not now, when you've been so successful, imagine if you could dedicate your full time and attention to this instead of just receiving clients as they were referred to you.

Speaker 2: 10:11

So I have now been a small business owner, a coaching practice owner, full time for 18 months and it has been the most professionally rewarding and also financially rewarding 18 months of my career so far, and I am just on a mission to get more women, people of color, lgbtq folks into the rooms where decisions are being made, because until there's representation for us at the top, there's never going to be joy and justice in the workplace or the workforce for 99% of folks.

Speaker 2: 10:47

And we do that through leadership coaching for folks who love where they're at. They just keep bumping up against some kind of ceiling wall, whatever it is. So we work with them to burst through that Career coaching for folks who are in a bit of a toxic work environment or a very toxic work environment, or just looking to make an overall pivot, but also people who are looking to reenter the workforce for any number of reasons or enter the workforce for the very first time. And then, as we know, amy, a lot of times when employees are struggling, it's not an individual issue, it's more of an environmental or systemic issue, and that's when we'll come in and do some workplace consulting with teams and the organization overall as it relates to culture and leadership. And that's how I got here today and now I have the privilege of talking to folks like you pretty consistently and getting to meet awesome communities like Together Digital.

Speaker 1: 11:47

That's awesome. That's wonderful. I love that you shared that story because I think a few things as it demonstrates is that you seemed really well attuned to understanding and knowing your purpose, but then also knowing when things didn't quite feel right and acknowledging that and stepping away from things. I think oftentimes we don't like to see ourselves as people who quit per se but, sometimes walking away is not the way of quitting.

Speaker 1: 12:11

It's a way of continuing. It's a way of actually winning and getting ourselves towards the thing, the next right thing, and I loved it. So it's like you know, over a number of years it's drawn out, it's not linear by any means. I think a lot, you know, I think it's a generational thing. Honestly, I do hope it's starting to change. But thinking that you get your degree and then you do the things right, you do the things, you get married, you have the house, you have the kids, you have the degree, you do the job that you had a degree in, and it just doesn't work that way.

Speaker 1: 12:43

So I think that's one thing I like about digital too, at least in this space. It's like you have the ability to learn and grow continuously, beyond your college years as well, through, like community certifications and things like that, as you're kind of working through and in in in the future. You know you're going to be able to do that, and I think that's one thing that I like about digital too, at least in this space, and things like that, as you're kind of working through and in in searching and learning more about yourself. Obviously, that took a span of like I don't know, 10 years maybe as we were talking. I'm kind of curious as a career coach, how do you help guide people on that path to self discovery and align their career paths with for themselves authentically? Because I mean, for a lot of us, myself included I relate to so much of your story. It kind of just took years and years and a lot of mistakes and a lot of just learning into what I loved Great to do it.

Speaker 2: 13:39

For sure, and that question and what you said. You know you made a lot of mistakes or missteps, it's not. It's just you are adding to your portfolio of experiences.

Speaker 2: 13:50

And that's the very first thing that I'll share with clients. You might have fallen into a field that you don't want to be in anymore. That's not a mistake. Let's look at all of the things that you've learned. What have you enjoyed what? What are your strengths? How can you contribute?

Speaker 2: 14:06

And so, typically, when I work with clients whether it's someone who's trying to explore new career paths or folks who are trying to develop more self awareness, which is a key component of leadership effectiveness what I actually start out with is a series of assessments called the Hogan assessments, and these assessments look at how do people experience you at your best when you're operating on all cylinders. How do people experience you when you're under stress and not necessarily self monitoring as well, because it's not the priority and then also, what is it that drives you so when the alarm goes off in the morning, what is it that is going to have you put both feet on the ground and ready for the day, instead of hitting the snooze button half a dozen times, which I'm guilty of, and I think for a lot of parents out there, they would be guilty of. You just don't all have the choice, because the kiddos need you. But we start out with those assessments, and what I love about them is they're the only assessments on the market that are rooted in a framework called the big five personality, which, if you are working with a mental health professional or clinician, they will be very familiar with it. It's been around since the 1950s. It's the gold standard for how we talk about and measure human personality, human behavior, but it's also used by 75% of the fortune 500 and two thirds of the fortune 100. And so my perspective is there is so much power and having the vocabulary and language to describe yourself, there's even more power and a greater advantage when you can describe yourself in words that are really going to resonate with a prospective employer, with a prospective employer or a recruiter or a hiring manager.

Speaker 2: 15:56

I saw a question pop up in the chat. The name is the Hogan assessments. It's the Hogan assessment system. If you give it a Google, it should be the only thing that pops up. Sure thing, ashley.

Speaker 2: 16:08

And so, starting there with those assessments, because what we want to do is build a really strong foundation of self awareness so that people are not only making a choice about where to go next, confidently and clearly, but so we can figure out in the exploration piece.

Speaker 2: 16:27

How are we going to create as much alignment between your strengths and your drivers as possible and how are we going to figure out the things that trigger you to show up in those derailing ways so you don't land yourself in an environment like that? Most of the time, what clients will come back and say is, as we were going through the Hogan development survey, which looks at how we behave under stress, they're like Katie, you tell me this isn't me all the time, but this is me all the time and I'm like that's because you're in the wrong environment and that's why we're here. I know this isn't you all the time. We need to get you somewhere where you're expending energy, being celebrated for who you are, being rewarded for who you are and not punished, and that's typically what causes those derailers to come out. So that's part of it and that's part of it, and that's the first thing that we do in our work, when we're working with clients. Is you?

Speaker 2: 17:28

know our very first conversation is what is it you want for your life not your career, but your life and after we're able to clearly establish that it becomes, how do we reverse engineer career into that? How do we land you in a workplace and in a career or a job that is going to be a job that you want to have, and what are the goals that you should have? At worst, a net neutral impact on our life, and at best it's something that is enhancing and allowing us to get to those aspirations and goals that we've set for ourselves, personally and professionally.

Speaker 1: 18:03

Awesome.

Speaker 1: 18:05

I think the thing I love that you most, that you pointed out there is it's really an internal job.

Speaker 1: 18:11

I think for the longest time we have thought that.

Speaker 1: 18:13

I mean, how many of us went into a career path or started in the career or look up to us over and we chased a title, we chased a salary, versus ever slowing down and to really evaluate ourselves beyond those things and look at something at as our career, as more than just a career.

Speaker 1: 18:32

It's like the life you're trying to build and live and that's such a big part of it and that might mean that maybe you're not chasing a title or salary. You're chasing something that allows for flexibility and purpose and you know other values that maybe you're not taking into consideration when you're in some other soul sucking job and you're wondering why you're so miserable. So I love that and thank you, kaylee, for sharing the assessment links in the chat for our live listening audience, and we'll definitely include those in our chat as well. How can we start to break free if we're talking a lot about limiting narratives? Or we will be talking a lot about limiting narratives I kind of alluded to some there just a second ago and construct a new, more empowering story about our career journey, kind of wherever we are, whether it's the start, middle or maybe somewhere near the end.

Speaker 2: 19:20

Yeah, and it's. I mean this is like you said, it's an inside job, but it's also a pretty consistent inside job. I don't think we ever get to a place where we're done developing self awareness. Because we are dynamic, we're interacting with folks that are dynamic, but in terms of the narratives we tell ourselves, so many of them come from early, early experiences right With with our family, what we see in the media, the expectations society has for us, and we don't have that self awareness growing up to be able to question or say, oh, this is wrong, because we're trusting, yeah, who we're with, what they're showing us and what we're seeing.

Speaker 2: 20:08

And I think in those really formative years what ends up happening is we end up getting these records on play on repeat in our heads right About who we are, what we're capable of, and then those messages get reinforced when we go to college and into the workplace Because in some ways we subconsciously will play into them because it's comfortable. And one of the things I do want to share is just because something is comfortable doesn't mean it's good for you. So often, as humans, we are just seeking consistent homeostasis and comfort. But comfort isn't always good and sometimes it's in the discomfort, that not sometimes. It's always in the discomfort, if we're looking at it through the right lens, that we can really grow my as someone who's trained as a therapist, in the very beginning of our exploration and our studies we're kind of asked to pick in orientation for how we're going to work with folks, and there's dozens that are out there, but the one that resonated with me most is called narrative theory, and it gets to this idea of as humans, we are storytellers by nature.

Speaker 2: 21:21

It's how information and knowledge get shared. It's why some commercials resonate with us more than other commercials, because of the way stories are told and delivered. And so, with narrative theory, essentially what's being asked is all of these internalized stories that we have. The only way that we can start changing those narratives is to externalize them from ourselves and to view them actually as a story or a book on a shelf instead of part of who we are and who we have to continue to be. So, for example, growing up and then, I was always a very high energy, super enthusiastic human, and I think in the 80s, had there been more of a focus on mental health, I might have been diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, which is something I'm getting evaluated for soon. But that high energy and enthusiasm once I got into the workplace was frowned upon.

Speaker 2: 22:27

It was viewed as unprofessional and so I started to tuck that part of myself away, which took an enormous amount of energy and prevented me from actually doing great work, because I was trying to be something that I wasn't Moving forward down the line in my career, I started hearing the same tune over and over again Katie, you're too ambitious. Katie, you're too aggressive about your ideas. Katie, you take too much of an activist approach to things. And in my mind, I'm ambitious because I want to do great things and accomplish great things and raise the bar and the level of excellence for others. I'm aggressive about my ideas because I think it's going to benefit the community or the students or the clients that I'm working with.

Speaker 2: 23:19

You think I'm too activist. It's me as a white cisgender woman in middle socioeconomic status who passes as heterosexual, for me to use the power and privilege that I do have, because if this nonsense is happening to me in the workplace, what's happening to everybody else? And so. But those messages again really started, especially early in my career, really took a toll on me and my mental health, and so to externalize instead of holding this as part of my identity you're too ambitious, you're too aggressive, you're too activist. It becomes. This is what other people are saying about me. Let me give it a name that's kind of funny and kind of silly, instead of repeating those words over and over again in my head. And so what I would encourage you to do is figure out those stories that are being told about you most often and figure out how you can put them on a shelf and title them.

Speaker 2: 24:26

The too ambitious, too aggressive, too activist for me is called Play it Again Sam, because it's usually men who are saying those things to me. That's the Play it Again Sam story coming up. It's not who I am. My ambition, my assertiveness, my advocacy is actually what allows me to be successful, and it's those three qualities that have allowed my business to thrive. And so once we can name what we're holding on to that doesn't belong to us, but as somebody else's idea of us, we can name it, laugh at it and then reframe it. That's where the real power starts, in order to be able to advocate for ourselves in the workplace.

Speaker 1: 25:06

I love it. That's a great strategy. I don't think I've ever heard of that before. I've definitely heard of naming, giving name to the voice of imposter syndrome, that negative, nagging voice. When you hear it you're like, well, that's not my voice, that's Giannis, or, as my daughter calls her, is Farty McFarterson. I don't know why.

Speaker 2: 25:25

More funny stories, because it's funny yeah and we need to be able to laugh at this, because it's nonsense, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 25:32

So I do love that and I think a couple other things you pointed out there that I've been hearing and seeing a lot from members and women that I also mentor is they just feel so stuck. And something I heard another woman say at a Black Tech Week conference last week was that you feel stuck when you feel powerless and the fact of the matter is that you're not going to obtain power or strength to work through or get unstuck from anyone else other than yourself. So you really have to do that work of looking at the narratives and the stories that others are telling you, that you're taking in and internalizing and believing, because otherwise you're just going to feel powerless to move. You're like this is who I am, this is who I've always been, I can't change. I'm just always amazed. I don't know, do they talk much about Stockholm syndrome, like about in the workplace? I'm so amazed at people who stay in toxic environments for extreme lengths of time, to the point that it literally breaks them down. It's amazing.

Speaker 2: 26:33

Yeah, so there's a lot of emerging research about this. So the idea of workplace-induced trauma, but also, as humans, we're relational beings. So whether it's an abusive relationship or an abusive romantic relationship or an abusive workplace relationship, the brain doesn't differentiate between the two, and so what it really comes down to again is being able to extricate yourself from that environment, because it is impossible to heal ourselves in the environments that made us sick, and so sharing that, knowing not everybody has the capacity or the safety net to leave that environment right away. And so, with clients, it becomes how do we make your day to day more tolerable until we can get you somewhere else where you're going to be able to not feel this way anymore?

Speaker 1: 27:33

Yeah, because we also got bills to pay and things to do, and that's another thing that makes you feel stuck or trapped, or the promise of abortion or raise or title, and yet somehow it's still all super toxic. We are discussing this. Actually, our keynote, flathea Charlton, is a trauma informed coach as well, and she works with organizations to help them, their employees and teams, through workplace trauma. So it's even being highlighted at our national conference.

Speaker 2: 27:59

I'm so excited to watch.

Speaker 1: 28:01

Yeah, it's such a big, important topic, so I'm really glad that we're talking about these things more, because I hope it means that we can all live happier health or healthier, longer lives, be more productive, but then also have some purpose in what we're doing. Co-hatch is a new kind of shared work, social and family space built on community. Members get access to workspace amenities like rock walls and sports simulators and more to live a fully integrated life that balances work, family, well-being, community and giving back. Co-hatch has 31 locations open or under construction nationwide throughout Ohio, indiana, florida, pennsylvania, north Carolina, georgia and Tennessee. Visit wwwcohatchcom for more information.

Speaker 1: 28:56

When it comes to leadership, I think one thing I see and hear a lot as well is that, especially for women because, again, I spend most of my time Hanging out with those amazing, amazing ladies of Together Digital we often want to wait for permission to step into our leadership or we think we have to do X, y and Z before we're considered a leader. What are some of the key aspects of developing our leadership skills that go beyond positions and titles?

Speaker 2: 29:21

Yeah, and Amy, a couple months ago, when we first met, we were talking about this, and I know we share the same perspective, in that leadership is a set of practices, it's not a position, and I like to think of those practices as clothing in your wardrobe I like to try them on, accessorize them in a way that really works for you and makes you feel your best, and so I can name a whole bunch of practices that employers are looking for in terms of leaders and what they're trying to build in terms of leadership development Really grounding yourself in that self awareness to be able to say, yes, I am going to begin practicing the leadership skill of influence, but understanding how you can do it in your authentic and genuine way, instead of how you saw your male leader do it or that toxic boss do it. And if we're going to talk a bit about the leadership skills that I think most employers are looking for right now, but also where we, as women, can really thrive in the application of them, because you don't need authority to have power, and you don't need authority to be able to lead. You just have to be willing to have the courage to step forward and try, and so employers are really looking for folks who can problem solve, people who are curious, collaborative, self aware, have the learning agility to be able to say I don't know how to do it, but if you teach it to me, I can apply it really quickly. But I also think two skills that get so overlooked when it comes to leading others. The first is listening, and I am going to actually steal.

Speaker 2: 31:13

I did not know Joanna was going to be on this call today, but she taught me a term Gosh, it would have been almost a decade ago now, when I was at DePaul. That has stuck with me and it's. She said we have to listen exquisitely to each other and I don't think leaders do that enough and if they try, they don't know how. And I like to say I listen for a living. That is my job, except one amount of podcast and right, but I listen for a living and part of it is. I think women are just much better at this. In general, to lean into your listening skills, that is a great way to be able to use your voice at the table by reflecting back emotion that you are picking up. Reflecting back, meaning that you are hearing at the table, being able to summarize, paraphrase move the conversation along. You don't always have to be coming in with a new idea. You can be moving the team forward. So it's listening.

Speaker 2: 32:11

And then compassion. Compassion is the other big quality I think missing in leadership today. We hear a lot about empathy. We don't hear a lot about compassion, and essentially, empathy is really being able to connect to the emotional experience of somebody else. Not the experience itself, but the emotion of anger, sadness, envy, disgust, anger, whatever it is. And then compassion says now that you know what that person is feeling, compassion assess, or compassion compels us to action, to be able to do something to relieve that suffering, to celebrate that joy, whatever it is. And so and so it's basically when you see something, it's choosing to not look away. When you feel something, it's choosing to not turn away from that emotional experience. And again, right along with listening, I think compassion is a tool that is easily accessible for a lot of women, but we've been told it's not leadership, and that is again another false narrative. It absolutely is, and it's what our workplaces need right now.

Speaker 1: 33:24

I agree, I love those two. Listening we definitely hear a lot and compassion. I think you make such a great differentiation there and reminded me of because it can't go like every other podcast without referring to Brunet Brown. But for Alice in the Heartbook talks about that like empathy is your ability to get it look right. It's literally my desk. It's amazing. Mine's not far from here too. It's over on my bookshelf but it is so amazing and I keep it and I go back to it often because I love that distinction that she made.

Speaker 1: 33:51

You know, empathy is great, but it can kind of put us in this trap of constantly feeling others, feelings for them, which isn't necessarily great for us.

Speaker 1: 33:58

And the next step sort of really, you know, showing and acting on that empathy is compassion, and compassion is, you know, sometimes it can be really awkward and hard. So learning how to hold space for others, you know, is another tremendous ability and gifted. I absolutely agree with you, it's, it's a wonderful leadership ability. I think what I love about all of this we're talking about is that, you know, I'm really starting to believe and see that self aware leaders are a larger and what that means for all of us who are more of a marginalized group or minority group or even just a consumer in general, like it means there's gonna be accountability, like that's. What I'm hoping for is accountability because we're all human and you know, just because you're on a pedestal with the title doesn't make you any less human. You know, you got talents, you've got skills, but just being able to have leaders to be accountable for the things that they are saying and doing I mean from everything from corporate to politics would just be such a lovely thing to have.

Speaker 2: 35:01

Yeah, saying and doing or not saying and not doing. There is accountability. That's needed in what's absent as well.

Speaker 1: 35:12

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I love that. And then, of course, kayleigh Dr and Renee.

Speaker 1: 35:16

Yeah, book Atlas of the heart if you haven't checked it out already, it is a phenomenal book.

Speaker 1: 35:22

I keep it and just use it as such, like a little encyclopedia of all the different terms for emotions that we don't even really have words for in the English language sometimes. I was so excited in a book I was reading it was about a Jewish family and it's I think it's a Yiddish word, but they talked about Shedden Freud, which means that it's actually kind of a devious emotion when you feel joy from someone else's pain. And when I saw it actually used in a book, I got so excited because the first time I'd read about it was through Atlas of the heart and it just gives you language around feelings and emotions and I'm really excited to share it with my kids as they get older, especially as we get into those teenage years, to give them language to be able to understand and know what it is they're feeling, because it's very complex. So, if you haven't checked it out already, we've read it as our together digital virtual book club, I think last winter. It was, of course, as always with Brené, brilliant.

Speaker 2: 36:11

Yeah and I to your point about giving this also and sharing it with your children. Research also shows that the people who are able to more accurately describe their emotions at a more nuanced or granular level are happier and more content in their life. And if for no other reason than more contentment and happiness and joy, pick up the book just for that reason, because it is. It's so powerful when we can name what we're feeling and express it as what it is, instead of a derailing behavior that's going to harm our reputation.

Speaker 1: 36:50

Absolutely. That is so great that actually I'm going to jump ahead to a question then, because I think it might lead a little bit into this idea of self advocacy. It's an actual topic that a lot of our community has said that they have struggled with, and in fact as well. We're putting together a self advocacy panel for the conference. I'm curious how do you approach cultivating courage as a skill to elevate yourself in the workplace, because it's a hard thing to do.

Speaker 2: 37:14

It's a really hard thing to do and not going to harp on self awareness again, but absolutely a foundation, and we can't advocate until we know who we are and what we want, and it has to be authentic and genuine, other the otherwise, the advocacy is not going to work. And I think we run into a bit of a double bind as women, because when we advocate for ourselves, it's frowned upon and it tends to be looked upon negatively. When we advocate for other people, that's actually one of the behaviors that allows other people to look at us and experience us as leaders. And now I think one of the best ways to build confidence in self advocacy is starting out by advocating for others, typically in a way that is also going to benefit you, because I promise you, whatever it is you're experiencing, you're not the only one, even though we're. Often we are the only ones, and that's what keeps the power away from us. Once we're willing to start talking to each other, opening up and holding that space for one another to say, oh my gosh, I experienced that to, what we can start do is advocating for one another. So I would say, starting by having conversations with your colleagues, with your friends, talking about the experiences that you're having in the workplace, if they are negative, if they're positive, if they're neutral, talking about all of them and being able to say you know what? I'm just making this really positive experience.

Speaker 2: 38:48

As women who look like us, I wonder what's happening to the women who identify as women of color or identify as lesbian. Maybe we can invite them into this conversation to. Is there a way that what we're having they can have as well, advocating in that way the other, ultimately leading to the ability for you to do it for yourself one day? There are lots of challenges here, right? Because we get worried. Oh my gosh, if I advocate for myself, if I advocate for somebody else, am I going to lose my job? Am I gonna be retaliated against, put on a performance improvement plan for being too aggressive or being too much of an activist?

Speaker 2: 39:35

One of the things that was really helpful for me was knowing that there's recourse for us when those things happen there. Ever since the Me Too movement really kicked off, there are lots of organizations that are doing education around employee rights the Equal Employment, opportunity Commission, eeoc. When you are experiencing discrimination in the workplace, a hostile work environment, sexual harassment, you are able to file a complaint against your employer and if they retaliate against you, you get to file another complaint. That can be really scary to do on your own. So the Times Up Foundation, which is an extension of the Me Too movement they actually have attorneys who have signed up pro bono to be able to help support folks and what I would say is you're advocating for yourself by taking that step and then you're having someone alongside you to complete the process. You never have to go it alone.

Speaker 1: 40:44

No, those are such good points. I have to look back and maybe, kaylee, you can dig it up quickly. I interviewed somebody a while back, a woman, part of the legal, something I can't think of what it's called now, but it was the Women's Bill of Rights and what it made me realize was like, oh, there needs to be some kind of documentation so that we can actually truly understand, like, what are our rights in the workplace, so that when things are, you know, infracted upon, we know we can't act, because that's half the problem Is that we're too afraid to act because we don't know if we actually have a case. And then you're also thinking about everything that comes along with, like you said, bringing that to the surface.

Speaker 1: 41:20

But I think if any of you are anyone listening who's ever been in this space and we've had a number of members who have gone through some serious shit the best thing you can do outside of finding legal representation, help and support, is to find support in general. So having a group of you know people that will know, will trust, you will believe, you will support, you will listen, will show compassion and hope for space, because I mean the mental and emotional exhaustion from fighting those battles, I can tell you first hand it is exhausting and it's you know, it can really wreck you. So I do think, making sure that you have a strong foundation and community around you when you're going into that space, definitely, definitely surround yourself with the support that you need because, yeah, it can get hard. So we talked a bit about self-advocacy and obviously that takes a bit of self-confidence. So what are some common challenges that people face when trying to develop self-confidence and how can they start to overcome them?

Speaker 2: 42:23

Yeah. So for me, confidence is an outcome right, and we can become more confident when we develop self-advocacy. And self-advocacy is really both do I believe I can do this thing and do I have the skill set to be able to do this thing? Self-advocacy is not. Yeah, I believe I can fly a plane, so let me just, you know, hop into the cockpit. But it's ooh, I believe I can do this. Let me go get trained up in it.

Speaker 2: 42:58

So I would say to folks who are struggling with confidence what are the things you really believe you are capable of if you are given the right tools, resources and support. Make a list of those things and then start engaging in the learning practices and development practices that are going to allow you to balance out that equation, so you could hop into the cockpit and fly the plane one day. And that's what leads to confidence. It's again the self-awareness piece, having the resources, the support, the community, and then the willingness to try Confidence as an outcome, just like our muscles, the more you engage in the practices and the strength training around it, the bigger it becomes. And for folks because I've also worked with folks like, oh, I'm afraid if I become too confident, people are gonna experience me as arrogant. There is so much distance between confidence and arrogance. It's the fact that you're even asking the question. You are not at high risk for engaging in arrogant behavior.

Speaker 1: 44:02

You're not that fool that's gonna jump into the cockpit without any sort of training or time in the air and say I can fly the plane. That's not the kind of confidence that you want. That's not the kind of confidence we're trying to acquire here. I love that. I think that's a great mindset shift. Is confidence as an outcome? Because I mean, anybody who shows confidence absolutely has doubt. They're just doing it anyways and they're doing it in a way that they can feel more confident about.

Speaker 1: 44:27

Thus, from the outside we're like, oh, she's so confident. No, no, she's just doing it anyways because she understands, she's self aware and she's done what she needs education, wise, to get her where she needs to go, or she's also still figuring out as she goes. So I love that. I wrote that down. I hope you wanted to. Confidence is an outcome. All right, we talked a lot about the individual. I wanna take a moment for any of our company leaders and things like that that might be listening. How can we begin to foster a courageous workplace culture and why is it important for organizations to embrace such a culture beyond the individual but to the greater group?

Speaker 2: 45:08

Yeah. So courage requires a lot. It requires us to have trust in our colleagues, trust in our direct leaders, trust in the overall mission vision and leadership of the company. Courage also requires us to be well. We cannot engage our courage unless we are well, and there are multiple dimensions of wellness.

Speaker 2: 45:37

The folks over at Work Human. If you're not familiar with them, get familiar with them. They do great work, research and development, for their whole tagline is just humanizing the workplace experience. I go to their conference every year. It is fantastic, it's a can't miss. But what they've identified in conjunction with the Gallup organization, is there's actually five dimensions to wellness. There's career wellness, financial wellness, physical wellness, emotional wellness and community wellness.

Speaker 2: 46:12

And unless your employees have all five of those dimensions that they can build, then it is very difficult for them to feel like they belong.

Speaker 2: 46:25

And when we don't feel like we belong, we cannot be courageous because it feels unsafe.

Speaker 2: 46:31

And so I would say focusing in on those five dimensions as a leader of a team or an organization can really go a long way for your employees to feel like they can be courageous and say the things that need to be said, take the risks that need to be taken to move the team or the company forward.

Speaker 2: 46:55

I would also say it's time that we stop rewarding how do I say this? The person who can make the most widgets or the person who can make the most sales. We need to start rewarding the employees who are upholding the values of the organization through their behaviors. Those do not get rewarded enough, and that's why people can show up in some pretty rotten ways, because the courage to live out those values is going unnoticed at best and not being rewarded or even potentially punished, because you focused on collaborating with your colleague who then was able to sell or make the most widgets, instead of you competing with them to do it. And so if you have values that are named and your employees know about, figure out a way to start rewarding them for living those out.

Speaker 1: 47:53

I love that. That's great. It's fantastic. All right, that's it. We've got about 10 minutes left, so if our live listening audience, if you have any questions, start thinking of those now, don't be shy about putting them into chat. I've got a couple of questions left here for you, katie, before we wrap up. Where can companies strike a balance between their bottom line and their employees' needs? Kind of ties in nicely with that last answer you just gave us.

Speaker 1: 48:18

Where it's like it's need to reward the most sales, because that's where you see it in your bottom line and that's what keeps your business going right. How can we begin to balance that bottom line need plus the employee needs?

Speaker 2: 48:29

Yeah. So, yes, sales are part of the bottom line, but so is attrition and disengagement, and while it's not as easily quantified or seen, the cost of losing an employee or the cost of having an employee who is disengaged which is about 68% of the workforce right now is very detrimental to a company's bottom line. And so it becomes about how do we retain our talent? What does it take to retain our talent? Sorry, the chat box just popped up. What does it take to retain our talent and what does it take to reengage our employees? It is an investment that is going to have a significant return in terms of attrition, but also, when employees are engaged, their output and their commitment is so much higher.

Speaker 1: 49:34

Yeah, it reminds me a lot of what we talked about last week with our productivity expert, about how a lot of times we see productivity as like the outcome of more things being done, and productivity is really more about that long game of producing quality over quantity. I think that's another thing too. It's like as companies, it's really easy for us to kind of look at again bottom line, because it's numbers and it's hard and it's fast and we all want to see short-term gains but we don't look at the long-term impact of employee attrition and things like that.

Speaker 1: 50:04

I mean the amount of money it takes to hire when your employee is on average, I heard at least the salary of the annual salary of that person, if not more than that.

Speaker 2: 50:14

And that's the conservative estimate, right. It goes all the way up to three times what that individual salary was. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:20

Depending on the role in what you're looking for. So I love that. I love the framework that you shared earlier about the five dimensions of wellness. I think that's a big part of like looking at and measuring, even like from your employees, like are they feeling balanced? Are they, did they feel that? You know, I know we say work life balance kind of a myth but it is about helping them understand and know that they have psychological safety, that they feel like they can go out on the limb and take risks and they're not gonna be called really ambitious and like what was the word, the word you used? Cause I got called aggressive activists? Yeah, I got called those things too. So I feel you very much there.

Speaker 1: 50:56

We're in good company, great, absolutely, yeah, and I know we're. The two of us are not even alone. There's other women right now that are listening Like, yeah, I probably, they're probably being called worse too. Yes, but anyways, all right, we've got our last question here for you, katie, which is can you tell us about a time when embracing courage led to conquering a new challenge? It can be either for you or, if you're comfortable and okay with it, maybe sharing about someone that you coached.

Speaker 2: 51:24

Yeah, I'll stick with me if that's okay. I think it was. Oh my, there's so many good ones. I think for me, one of the most profound and traumatic experiences that I had working is actually what led me to create and establish and build, encourage, coaching, and so while I was working at the University of Texas at Austin, it is a very traditional workplace environment, and when I say traditional, at best they viewed new ideas as a sign of disrespect and at worst it was just a very covertly racist and sexist environment to work in, and covert racism and sexism is so much more difficult to combat than what it looks like in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and so part of the reason my tenure there was so short is the environment was so toxic for me and experienced from my direct supervisor, who was male, his supervisor who was male, his supervisor who was male varying degrees of discrimination, harassment and retaliation, and so when you talked about, you know, keeping a log or keeping a record of the things that are said, the opportunities that are lost and the things that are done to you, that's something that I started doing.

Speaker 2: 53:02

The challenge was I was so afraid, so afraid to report anything, cause at the time I was engaged to my now husband, partner spouse. His name is Ben, he's good with whatever you wanna refer to him as, and he's an immigrant to the States, and I needed to have a full-time job in order to be his sponsor to bring him over here. And I was terrified that if I lost that job because I reported and took action, I wouldn't be able to get him here, and so held my tongue until I was able to leave that university and was at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, and shortly after that that is when the Me Too movement emerged the Times Up Foundation came into being. I reached out with my list that I had compiled. They connected me with three attorneys, who all validated they're like the first three things of these 25 are grounds enough to bring litigation and bring a file acclaim. And they said with that being said, you've missed your window of opportunity, you ran out of time. So it really is. You get 180 days. That's what you get. If it's a state institution, I think you get up to 360 days.

Speaker 2: 54:31

But again, these policies are put in place to benefit the employer. Most people don't report while they're still working in that environment, and so I had missed my window, but then I was on a mission to make sure other people didn't miss theirs and had the resources to heal from those toxic and discriminatory experiences so that they could be successful in their next workplace. Because the challenge of trauma is it doesn't come back as a memory. It comes back as an action or a behavior, often that derail us in our career, our reputation, our leadership, and I know that that had happened to me and I didn't wanna see that happen to anyone else. So it was the courage to know this is not what I deserve. It was the courage to report and then the courage to say you know what I'm gonna build, something that's gonna make life, work life a bit better for those that I have the privilege of coaching and working alongside.

Speaker 1: 55:41

I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that, because it's a lot to go through. I can only imagine what that was like, and it does seem like the things that almost bury us are the things that give us opportunity for new growth. It's like the thing that's like here is your sign from the universe that you need to do something about this, because that is a part of healing. Right? I learned that, too, from the body keeps the score. People who have been through some massive, massive trauma in their lives and really the way that we heal through that is by helping others with what we've been through and what we've learned, sharing access to the resources and the experience that we've had. So whenever anybody shares a traumatic experience like that, I always wanna pause and say thank you for being vulnerable and sharing it, because it means something to somebody who's listening right now. They need to hear these things.

Speaker 2: 56:26

Thank you, Amy. And it's courage, but it's also the psychological term is post-traumatic growth, so being able to take those experiences to then help others. There's healing in that which allows us to grow and become the most whole version of ourself that we can be.

Speaker 1: 56:45

Yes, yes, All right, we're just about done. I noticed there was a comment from one of our live listening members. Ashley says I feel like those organizations know that you're depending on the job and that's how they get away with these things for so long it takes someone who is in a more privileged place to make the discrimination stop.

Speaker 2: 57:03

Agreed 100%, and that's what I'm trying to do get more of us into those rooms where decisions are being made, so it can.

Speaker 1: 57:10

Help those people who've been through the trauma, who've had the experiences, who know what it's like to have the resilience and the courage to step into their leadership to start making some change, however big or small. It doesn't require a title. Katie, this was wonderful. Thank you so much for all the work that you're doing and why you're doing it. It's wonderful to hear your experience and your story. I hope those of you who are listening live and in the future get a lot from this. It's always great to have you here with us. Happy Friday everyone. Go out there and be amazing. See you next week. Bye, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, la, la, la, la la.