Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share

Energize Your Social Media

July 29, 2024 • Chief Empowerment Officer, Amy Vaughan

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Welcome to The Power Lounge, your go-to place for engaging conversations in the digital world. In this episode, join our host, Amy Vaughn, as we explore the dynamic world of social media alongside Jenn Herman, a renowned Instagram expert and author. Discover her journey balancing work, family, and a thriving business. Learn about strategic breaks, customer service in marketing, and Instagram trends. Gain valuable insights on content variety, Reels, DM connections, posting frequency, and boosting engagement.

Featured in the Episode

Jenn Herman

Instagram Expert | International Speaker | 4X Dummies Author

Jenn’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennherman/

Instagram: Instagram (@jenns_trends)

Amy Vaughan,

Owner & Chief Empowerment Officer

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amypvaughan/

Takeaways

  • Autonomy and Adaptability in Entrepreneurship
  • Customer Service in Marketing
  • Misconceptions and Challenges of Instagram Marketing
  • Tips for Instagram Marketing
  • Instagram Platform Changes
  • Engaging through Instagram DMs

Quotes

"Navigate entrepreneurship adeptly by balancing between pushing hard and coasting smoothly towards success." - Jenn Herman

"Blend educational and sales content to create a deep connection with your audience." - Jenn Herman

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction

06:39 - Building Brand Skills

10:46 - Seeking Support and Manifesting Goals

15:41 - Productivity Maximization Through Body Listening

21:41 - Brand Experience Impact

24:33 - Copywriter to Visual Instagram

33:28 - Following for Digital Specialization

35:38 - Key to Social Media Success

37:54 - Target Audience and Content

48:55 - Instagram's Direct Messages Emphasis

51:50 - Lead Generation Strategy

01:00:28 - Outro

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Speaker 1:

All right. Hello everyone, and welcome to our weekly Power Lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women in digital who choose to share their knowledge, power and connections. You can join the movement at togetherindigitalcom, and today our guest is none other than Jen Herman.

Speaker 1:

She is a globally recognized Instagram expert. If you're not following her already, head on over and follow, follow, follow. She's a social media consultant and international speaker. She is the author of not one, but three game-changing books Instagram for Dummies, instagram for Business Dummies and the Ultimate Guide for Social Media Network networking. Her insights have been featured on major publications including Fox News, bbc News, yahoo Finance, entrepreneur and HuffPost, just to name a few.

Speaker 1:

But what really sets Jen apart is her unique blend of business acumen and social savvy. With a background spanning administration, sales, human resources and marketing, she really brings a holistic approach to helping businesses of all sizes which we love structure their social media strategies for maximum impact, because, as many of us in digital know, it's a lot to keep up with, and yet Jen's influence extends far beyond the written word. In case you've seen her books and read her books. She is also a sought-after international speaker and is renowned for providing actionable tips. Like I said, go follow her on Instagram for sure.

Speaker 1:

Great tips there and valuable resources and transformative training that empowers organizations to harness the full power of social media presence. And, of course, some of those tips will be shared here today, as we have the privilege of tapping into some of Jen's wealth and knowledge on Instagram marketing, as well as just being a badass single mom and doing it all you know, and doing it really well. So get ready, everyone, to elevate your social media game with one of the best in the business. Everyone, please join me in welcoming the Instagram guru herself, jen Herman. Welcome, jen.

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, what an introduction. Thank you so much, Jamie. I'm so glad to be here. Hey, you know what.

Speaker 1:

When we're in a community of awesome ladies, we like to hype each other up. So, yeah, we're excited to have you here. Like I said, we have been following you for a while and I've loved seeing what you're building grow and what you're doing grow. And it's just very clear what you're doing is a passion. Right, it's a business, but it's a passion. You love it and that's what we love about you. Right, cause you love this.

Speaker 2:

Uh, thank you. Yeah, no, it's. You don't do all this unless you're passionate about it.

Speaker 1:

Well, because our listeners might not know this, but you, you built this very impressive, impressive career um being a globally recognized Instagram expert, while I mentioned earlier being a single mom, but also, if they look at your LinkedIn, maintaining a full-time job folks. So can you share a little bit with us about how you've managed to do all this really grow your business alongside these significant commitments of motherhood and running a business, and what sorts of insights could you possibly offer to those who are maybe dreaming of entrepreneurship while juggling all of these responsibilities that we do have as women?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean I'll try to keep this short because I mean this alone could be a 45 minute conversation, but you know, I started Jen's Trends, you know, 11 years ago and I've been at my day job for 14 years, so I started this while I still have the current job that I have now, and it really was a hobby. When I started this, it was a blog. It was, you know, writing about social media. There was no strategy, there were no clients, there was no, you know, revenue, like I wasn't doing it to make money, I was just bored on the weekends and wanted something to do. So I started a blog and it evolved quickly.

Speaker 2:

Back then, instagram was still relatively new, obviously, and there weren't a lot of people talking about it strategically. So I fell in love with the platform and decided I'm going to start blogging about Instagram more. And because nobody else was, it didn't take long for me to start ranking on Google and start getting podcast requests. And next thing, you know I'm, you know I I went to social media marketing world, which at the time was the biggest social media conference in the world, and I was like I'm going to be on that stage. Like that was my goal. I wanted to be on that stage and literally a year later, I was on that stage and that, literally a year later, I was on that stage and that that was like my, my kind of crowning moment of like I set that intention, I manifested that and I was like I did that, but then it was like now, what do I do? So it was, it was kind of always, you know, like I built this, like you said, alongside the full time job and you know, it's never been directly an exit strategy by any means. But you know, I've had all these life experiences happen. So I started Jen's Trends in 2013, I had my daughter in 2015, then I got divorced in 2016, then we had COVID like so there's been all these life things that have happened.

Speaker 2:

And what most people don't know is that when I got divorced, I paid my ex-husband all the alimony and child support, so I had to support financially. So I needed two jobs, you know, and I live in Southern California, I live in a very privileged neighborhood and my daughter goes to one of the best schools, and you can't live here on a single income, right, you have to be a two income household, and so it's really a matter of survival, that's. You know, there's passion and there's desire and I love what I do. My day job is great and I love what I get to do for Jen's Trends, but it honestly was a matter of necessity and you know, as parents, we do what we have to do, and so having benefits and stable income and everything for a day job is just too good to give up right now. So you keep doing that.

Speaker 2:

But building the business the one thing best advice I think I can ever give people if you're looking to say, hey, I want to get into entrepreneurial and I want to start this it's two things.

Speaker 2:

One don't start out trying to make money right away. If you've got the full-time day job. Build the business, build the brand, build the recognition, build your skill set, take the time to get where you want to go without having to chase money. That was one of my biggest advantages. I could build a brand, I could go speak pro bono, I could go on podcasts and I didn't care about getting paid because I had income coming in from the day job. Once you leave that day job, you have to chase the money from the side business right. So build the foundations of your entrepreneurial journey and your skills and your brand while you still have that day job. And then the second thing would be make sure you communicate very, very clearly with your spouse, with your family, your kids your parents, your friends, whomever it is, because doing something unpaid that takes a lot of time builds a lot of resentment.

Speaker 2:

And when you're building your entrepreneurial start you're not going to make a lot of money and that might mean you get up. You know start you're not going to make a lot of money and that might mean you get up at 5am on Saturday and work until 8am when the kids you know we're finally up and ready for breakfast. But your spouse needs to know like that's your quiet time. Don't bug me If you're a night owl and you want to work from 7pm to midnight, you know the spouse is putting the the kids to bed and they know that's mommy's quiet time to work. But you have to have those open dialogues and conversations Because once you start making money the resentment comes down.

Speaker 2:

But until you start making money there's a lot of resentment. You're not spending time with your family. You're picking this business over me, you don't care about your family and you're not making any money. It's not doing anything for us. It's really easy to do that. So you have to have open communication and explain where you want this to go. You're doing it pro bono now, but in two years this is your exit strategy from your day job. In one year, you expect to be making 10, 20, $30,000, whatever that number is. But set those expectations and if you're not hitting those goals, have that open dialogue with your spouse as well and say okay, well, we're not where I thought I'd be in two years. Where do you think we should go from here? Should I keep doing this? Do I need to bring somebody on to help? Are we willing to absorb that cost? When you start this, you don't have a team. You have your family and you have to treat them with the respect that you would a business team.

Speaker 1:

That's such great advice, jen, from top to bottom, beginning to end all of that. I love that idea of really leaning into building your credibility, your brand and who you are, because I think you know we have we support a lot of entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs within Together Digital. We've had a lot of women come to the group and start their business because they've joined the community and a lot of that is, you know, spending time sort of establishing your brand, your credibility, because the first year of business is almost ultimately referral and word of mouth, and so you have to have that trust and credibility, and word of mouth is the best way to obtain that.

Speaker 1:

I think that's great and I again, being a fellow entrepreneur, support, support, support, support. I mean this goes for any working parent and any working environment, but for entrepreneurs entrepreneurs especially, because you have to go that extra mile and if you are doing the full time on top of the side, hustle all the more. And I do think, as women, sometimes we do think we have to do it all and be it all and by all means and for God's sake, no, you don't lean on community, lean on your network, lean on your support system, your immediate family, your extended family, your friends, whomever your neighbors, for crying out loud like whoever you can and I love how you said that like articulate your vision for not just yourself but for those around you to know where you're headed. I think sometimes too, we tend to kind of hold that close to our chest and then we expect some.

Speaker 2:

Because we don't want to be wrong, right, we don't want to say, oh, I'm going to do this in two years, then you don't hit a goal or people will be like you can't achieve that.

Speaker 1:

We're afraid that people aren't going to trust where we think we're going to take it, but like you said, though, if you don't put it out into the universe, it's never going to happen. It doesn't happen, and if you don't look around and ask for the help and support that you need in order to obtain that goal, then it's also not likely to happen.

Speaker 1:

Such great advice and again, I 100% agree. I think that's one thing I've learned. I think it's a cool side effect of becoming an entrepreneur having been somebody who was in an agency environment for a decade and a a half is that running a business and I'm being an entrepreneur is kind of like a whole family project.

Speaker 1:

You know my husband is involved, my kids are involved, you know, to some degree, and they get to see and be a part of that journey and experience in a way that when I was working for somebody else it just wasn't the case. It's really, really interesting.

Speaker 2:

Well, even I've had this conversation with with so many people and you know, kind of in the even, not even in this industry, like I, have friends that work at home, that have corporate jobs but they work at home. As kids we never saw our parents work right like our parents left in the morning and they went to work and they worked. We didn't know what they did. They told us oh, I worked in a bank, or oh I, you know'm an interior designer, but you never saw them work.

Speaker 2:

Our kids are watching us work. They see how we handle conflict. They see how we handle stress. They see how we handle coworkers, even if that's just your VA or your accountant or whatever. They see us interact in ways that we never got to Like. They learn leadership from us. They learn business skills and negotiation and and you know resisting the no for better or worse. That's such a great point.

Speaker 2:

You know, but these are things that we get to share, that we never got growing up watching our parents work, and so it's it's a privilege, it's fascinating but it's a privilege, I know right, such a fascinating observation.

Speaker 1:

I hadn't even never thought about that. All right, so I wanted to kind of ask you quickly too, kind of as you've gone through this journey, looking back, because you know a lot of our listeners are sort of on this path or about to go on this path, and they're going to hit that moment Every single one of us have right on this entrepreneurial journey Was there ever a moment that you felt like giving up? And, if so, what kept you going and how did you push through? Just for anybody, maybe, who needs those kind of words of encouragement as well I don't think I ever wanted to give up.

Speaker 2:

I've never hit that. You know that level. I have definitely hit levels where I pull back, where I'm like we're, we're going to let life take its course, and I'm not like I always say. There's, there's various stages of acceleration and as an entrepreneur, right, there's. Sometimes you are peddled to the metal, like you are full throttle and you are just building and growing and throwing everything out there and doing everything you can. And then there are seasons where you kind of come off the throttle and you coast and you're like I'm just going to relax this year, this six months, this quarter, whatever it is, and I've got other things, I've got kids things, I've got, you know, spouse things, I've got family things, illness, medical things happen and you just kind of come back off that throttle and you just let it coast for a little bit.

Speaker 2:

And I think that's one of the hardest things as entrepreneurs is learning to accept coasting we're. So. You know, I come from a sales background. You don't sell, you don't eat, right, like you've got to be making sales, you're constantly pushing. There is no stop, there is no slowdown, because when you do, there's no revenue. And so I think it's really hard, as entrepreneurs, for us to take vacation to learn to say no. I'm going to stop working at two o'clock and be there with my kid.

Speaker 2:

That's why you did this you started your own business to be there for your family. But we're the first people to say, no, I've got to get this email out, no, I've got to make sure this project is done and we don't learn to scale back. And I think if we learn to scale and coast, then we don't want to quit, right, Because it's when you're all in, it's when you're pushing so hard that you want to give up, that you can't go another day, that you're burnt out and you just want to throw the towel in. And that's not to say that we, you know I yes, I've had days where I'm like what if I just quit?

Speaker 2:

I'm talking like move to an Island somewhere in, like you know, the Caribbean and never look, or another planet altogether. Right, like it's extremes over here, right, but it's. But we all have those momentary thoughts but yeah, I don't think I've ever really wanted to quit.

Speaker 2:

It's been more. Let's find a way to coast. Let's find a way to to scale back when we need to and trust that we have the positions in place whether it's through support or ourselves or, you know, multiple revenue streams, whatever it is that we can take that time for ourselves and rejuvenate ourselves so we don't get 100%.

Speaker 1:

I think I just there's so much I love in that answer as well. There is absolutely power in the pause, and I have found that I am so much more productive when I listen to my body and pay attention to how my mind is working or in some instances not working so well when I need those moments of intentional pause. And I think the beauty of running a business over time too is you begin to understand the ebbs and flows of your business, you understand the seasonality of your business, and so then you can kind of begin to take advantage of those times when you can start to press the gas or come off of the gas.

Speaker 2:

And I think it's been one of and as you grow, you get to set those ups and flows too. You get to say I'm taking the month of. I typically take the month of December off, love it. I don't typically work because I want to enjoy the holidays with my daughter and my friends and travel and my boyfriend and do things. I want to have a holiday experience. I don't want to be working until December 23rd and get two days of holiday time. But we get that choice and I ramp up heavy September, october that I know I have the revenue settled so that by December I know I can settle in and take it super easy.

Speaker 1:

You can drive harder when you've taken the time to rest 100%. And this is the beauty of like when you work for yourself, work for yourself, like, don't drive yourself into the ground. I agree with you, I think, for as hard as it has been, I think deep, deep down, you know, yeah, there's just never been like a breaking point of like I just want to give it all up because it's just like how can I ever go back?

Speaker 2:

And that's the thing. I'm like this is my baby, like I've been raising this business for 11 years. And that's not to say that there isn't a time to pull the rip cord and leave, like there's times where you just have to shutter a business and start over or sell a business. There are reasons why you will let something go, but that doesn't mean that you can't change.

Speaker 2:

You can't adapt. I'm an Instagram expert. Let's face it. Instagram's not going to be here for the next 20, 30 years. I'm not going to retire on Instagram, but that means I have to pivot. It means I have to think about long-term strategies, but it's my business. I can do that right. I can do that whenever I want. I can add additional strengths and I can turn around tomorrow and be like you know what? I'm going to be a motivational speaker for women, and that's my prerogative. No one is stopping me because it's my business to do that and I think, like you said, this is your business Work for yourself.

Speaker 2:

You built this for yourself, work for yourself and trust that you get to make those choices, whatever they look like Love it.

Speaker 1:

Well, we've got live listeners with us today, so don't forget folks. You could use the chat and you can ask any more questions that you have about Jen and her entrepreneurial journey that you've got about starting and building and growing your business. But let's do some nerding out on Instagram. But first a little bit more background about you. I mentioned in your bio that you have experience in administration, sales and HR. I am kind of curious, before we kind of get too deep into the Instagram nerdiness, how has this diverse experience influenced the way that you approach marketing on Instagram?

Speaker 2:

Oh my gosh, it's it, it. It is why I approach marketing the way that I do.

Speaker 2:

You know I've been in. I've been in sales since I was in high school, right. I've worked in retail and all that sort of stuff, and I've worked in hospitality, I've worked in customer service. So those have always been the bedrock of my marketing mentality Customer service comes first. If you have customer service, you don't have to market Because, again, it's a word of mouth, right. If you're marketing and you're putting content out there, you're doing social media, you're doing your blogs, you're doing your website, you're doing podcasts, whatever it is, it's your customer service.

Speaker 2:

When someone reaches out and asks you a question, how long does it take for you to respond? How do you respond? Are you compassionate? Are you rude? Are you direct? Are you subtle? Like all of these customer service aspects, are your brand right?

Speaker 2:

And so that is your marketing, that is how you are known and so that has always played a major impact. And then going into the corporate world and, yeah, working in, I was an executive assistant to like the number two for a major, massive organization, like a global organization, and you know. So I saw a lot of like how corporate works and and how things, how one decision here has so many impacts and how a person making a decision over here doesn't understand how that decision will impact all these people and working in HR and and you know all these other aspects of corporate. It really does impact everything. And marketing is is kind of the face of the company, right? Marketing is what people see first, whether that's recruiting, whether that's customers, whether that's partnerships. Your marketing is what people see first. And marketing cannot work in silo. It has to work in conjunction with all those other departments.

Speaker 2:

If recruiting is over here trying to do one thing and your marketing is doing something completely different, it doesn't align, it doesn't serve the business purposes. And I think that's one of the things that so often people turn to social media and they hire the intern, they hire their nephew or whomever, and they're like, oh, just throw some content on social media and it's. It's not that it doesn't work, but it's not strategic. Right, it's great You've got likes and engagement, but is it serving your business? Is it getting recruiting? Is it building customers? Engagement, but is it serving your business? Is it getting recruiting? Is it building customers? How are you treating those people when they ask questions? And all of those are such a huge impact on the business as a whole. So, yeah, I definitely approach Instagram, social media, all of marketing, as one major cog in the wheel. Right it's all works in conjunction with everything else in the business. It will never work in silo and if you treat it that way, it's setting up a failure.

Speaker 1:

I 100% agree. Yeah, yeah, I 100% agree, because I mean just even from, like a branding standpoint, and I don't think people realize this much, but it's such a inside out job, right. Everything down from, like you said, the recruiting and the hiring, down to like cause again, like how those customer service people speak to and treat the individual customers. If I have a brand experience on your Instagram page and I got the idea that you've got a great product with great customer service, and then I have a problem with your product and I go on and I try to like reach out to somebody and they're a total a-hole to me, or it's not the experience, it's like there's broken trust.

Speaker 2:

Or no response at all, or no response at all, yeah it's a completely broken trust.

Speaker 1:

And if there's no trust and there's no consistency within like the way that my customer experience is going, then I don't trust and believe in your brand and there's going to be no loyalty, there's going to be no continued word of mouth and, yeah, you could probably be the prettiest brand in the world or the ugliest even, and I'm not going to keep returning, but yeah, I agree. And then, as far as the platform itself goes, so why Instagram? What was it that kind of drew you to it? You said you kind of picked it up early on.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean. So I will admit like when Instagram came out, it was definitely one of those.

Speaker 1:

I'm like oh, not another platform Right.

Speaker 2:

Like we had Twitter, we had Google plus, we had Facebook, we had all these things, and I was like, I don't have time for another platform, but I loved it as a creative Like.

Speaker 2:

Back in the day, instagram was about photography, it was about visuals Right, and back in the day, it still is one of the best community tools.

Speaker 2:

But back in the day, instagram was a place where you could literally just comment on someone's post and, like, two minutes later you were besties, right. Like it was just such a community driven platform and you met so many people around the world who were so similar to you and so, you know, just aligned, and it was so easy to connect with people on Instagram because it was so simple in that capacity and that was why I loved it. And so I was like, okay, but this is so great for business. Like, imagine if you could take that community interaction that Instagram gives us and turn that into customer service and loyalty. And so that was the real business draw to it. And I still, to this day, the Instagram head, adam Mazzeri, has said he will never put clickable links on posts. And I was like, yes, I support this a hundred percent and I've always supported it because it keeps Instagram so different from everything else.

Speaker 2:

You're not a link, you're not just dropping links every five minutes and it forces us to be creative and it I always say I'm like the people who do Instagram well are setting themselves apart from their competition because they are. They are doing it well they're not just doing it to check the box.

Speaker 1:

You've got to make that extra effort too. I do. I it's so funny. I am a copywriter, copywriter, creative director by trade and even though I'm a copywriter, I'm still very much a visual person. So, like you would have thought in that day, in the days when it just first came out, that I would have been like all about Twitter, but I was never really that turned on by Twitter I was.

Speaker 1:

When Instagram came out, I was like, yes, I have a place to put all of my pictures and like I've let everybody basically just see my camera roll for all these things that I can, I want to show, and then I don't have to try to like write words with them, cause, like Facebook was like all already becoming its own weird little thing and you know, twitter, I was like I don't know, I could be quippy, I guess, and write headlines, but I kind of already do that all day for a living. So maybe that's why it's like I don't want to do more of that. I can just show pretty pictures and meet. Like you said, there was a community aspect for sure there. I love that. I love that. Well, let's talk a little bit about misconceptions when you're dealing with folks kind of coming into the platform. I think that's something you mentioned, like the struggle with the links and whatnot. Are there any sort of misconceptions about Instagram marketing that you tend to need to address often in your work?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think one of the biggest ones. So there's two. There's one Instagram doesn't work for me and then they're done, like if it didn't work for them once, they're just done with it and I'm like okay but how much Nobody liked it.

Speaker 1:

Why did you try Right?

Speaker 2:

It was like people are so quick to give up on Instagram or there's so many changes, they're like I just can't keep up with the algorithm. It hates me. So there's all these things where people come in and just assume that it's not going to work. So I'm constantly trying to like, be like, but no, it does. You just have to give it its own strategy and you can't do what you did on Facebook, on Instagram, and you can't do what you did on LinkedIn or Twitter or whatever and put it on Instagram. It doesn't work.

Speaker 2:

And the other kind of flip side that I deal with a lot is from people who aren't in marketing that will say it's Instagram. How hard can it be? You know they're like you post a photo, it's not hard, and I'm like yeah, I haven't built a decade long career on it being easy, right. I'm like I'm not speaking in foreign countries because it's easy, right. So it's the people who don't do marketing think it's so easy and the people who do marketing are over here. It's so easy and the people who do marketing are over here. Being like it just doesn't work.

Speaker 1:

And so it's the two sides depending on kind of who you talk to would be the biggest miscommunication that makes a lot of sense and I would definitely agree with your very first one of like I tried it and it doesn't work. People just don't seem to understand like the engagement aspect of it, how just it is. You can't just post once and put it out there. It's like building a website and expecting everyone to come and find it because you built and put a website.

Speaker 2:

But you launched it and you're like why don't I have 10,000 visitors? Right, when is everybody?

Speaker 1:

I'm like, because you just put a grain, why isn't Google? Showing it to people I was like, because you just put a grain of sand in the desert and you expected everyone to find that grain of sand. Congratulations. It doesn't work that way, Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Oh my goodness and we've talked about that quite a bit too this is like our social media week. This week, we did for our members a social media masterclass, but it actually was hosted by one of our members, dixie. He used to work for Warby Parker and, yeah, it was just so funny because we talked about that. We spend a good portion of our time being marketers, but really a lot of our time is spent being educators.

Speaker 1:

I'm just really trying to teach everybody but no, really, this is honestly like you said. It's more work than what you realize. It's not as simple as posting a picture and, no, you have to do more than just post the picture. All right, um, when? So let's talk about those folks that are struggling to stand out on Instagram. Uh, what are? Maybe what's one kind of fun, unconventional tip that you could share for creating engaging content that might help cut through the noise, cause it can sort of feel daunting right when we're first coming into the space and we want to make a little bit of a splash.

Speaker 2:

Oh my God, only one Like I have 12 off the top of my head.

Speaker 1:

No Go follow her page for all the rest.

Speaker 2:

Right, exactly, if you're really wanting to make a splash right now, the biggest thing, if you're really wanting to make a splash right now, the biggest thing, unfortunately, would be Instagram Reels. It is a heavy push. It is something that Instagram wants us to be creating Reels they want us creating video content. That doesn't mean photos don't work. It doesn't mean stories don't work, it's just, you know, it's kind of like when Facebook said, build a Facebook group, it was like everyone went and built a Facebook group because it was like when Meta says, do we do so? Reels are kind of like where you are and if you don't love creating video, I get it Like. I actually really don't like reels at all, but go look at my feed. It's a lot of reels because they work.

Speaker 2:

The key to reels if you are trying to garner reach, attention, stand out is doing shorter reels. Longer reels are amazing. I'm the first person to max out a 90 second reel. I have one loaded up. It's literally 88 seconds. I'm like, yes, we just got the 90 second mark. I love those, but those are the educational ones. Those are serving your existing audience. If you're trying to grow, reach new people, stand out, you want to be reels under 30 seconds, because those are the ones that go into explore, those are the ones that go into recommendations, those are ones that go into the homepage for reels. Reels over 30 seconds don't get that type of exposure typically. So you want to be creating those shorter reels and you got to come in hot. Like I always tell people, you can't come in with a reel and as marketers, as brands, we've been conditioned with the YouTube environment right. So you've got this beautiful bumper intro and you have your. Hi. I'm Jen Herman, with Jen's Trends and in this video, like you can't do that in a reel.

Speaker 2:

Like in a reel, like you're coming in hot and you're like do you struggle with it? Like, and you just come in hot, like you got to get their attention, because if you don't have their attention in those split seconds, they're scrolling past you. So you can after the fact, like, you can come in and say do you struggle with using hashtags on instagram? I'm jen herman and I'm one of the world's leading experts on Instagram marketing. Here's what you need to know about hashtags. Like, you can still put your intro, but it is going to be so short, so quick, just the high list of highlights, and it comes after you've introduced the topic. You've really got to capture their attention and make them want to stay, and if you're doing an introduction, it should validate why they should stay. So in that case, I said I'm jen herman, one of the world's leading experts. If you ask chad gtb, I'm technically the leading expert, but it's you want to say that, because it validates why they would stay and listen. It's not just you saying, hey, I'm some rando over here talking about instagram hashtags, right? So you know, if you're a dog walker and you're saying like here, like this is like this is why you should not walk on concrete. I walk dogs every day for a living. I've dealt with the burns right, like you want to validate in your super short introduction why they should listen, and then those are the reels that will typically get more exposure.

Speaker 2:

But, to your point, you're going to have to create, you know, 6, eight, 10, 12 reels before you start to see results, before you start to go. This is what works for me, this is what my audience wants, this is what gets attention. You have to test. You can't try one thing and go, oh well, it doesn't work for me. I tried it once. Exactly, I did that one reel. Or, and conversely you, you know, I have one of the members in my membership. I have a membership called profit, your profile dedicated to instagram marketing, and one of the members came in her first reel she ever created went gangbusters, viral and has hundreds of thousands of views, you know, and it's like, which is amazing, right.

Speaker 2:

And she was like Jen, I made a reel and it just won't stop. And I was like, well, this is great, but in the same turn, every reel she's had since then gets like a thousand views, right, like you can't. You can't be like, oh, I did one and it worked, and just expect that you're going to be massively successful from then on. Like one is never an efficient case study exactly.

Speaker 1:

You're like that's great, but don't expect that for the rest of the time, sorry. And then you're like don't write here, guys. It's not going to be that way every time. I'm sorry, but good for you, good for you. It's like the kid on the field that accidentally scored a goal the first time playing ever.

Speaker 2:

And then it's going to be the best.

Speaker 1:

You're like. I know I love you, honey. You did so good. That's not happening again for the rest of the season. But hey, you know what Great confidence builder. You just have to keep going and keep trying. I love it. Those are great, great tips Again, this is why you all need to go follow her Cause again.

Speaker 1:

Like I said, all very good, very actionable tips and advice Cause again. It's like it's so clear that you, you study and you know the platform and this is what it, this is what it means to be specialized, which, again in in digital anymore, jen, this is. I think this could be like a whole other hour long conversation. Having been somebody who came into the space just as digital was kind of coming out into the world, you know it used to be that you had to be specialized and it's now. We have to be generalist and we have to know all the things and be all the things and do all the things, and that's just ridiculous. Anyhow, but I digress. That was great advice.

Speaker 1:

I took loads of notes. I hope you all did too. Like I said, live listeners, feel free to drop questions in the chat if you have them. Let's talk about audience engagement. As I mentioned earlier, it's really critical and it's very much a two-way street which I'm sure you'll probably get to in here. So, on that note, what is your favorite method for fostering genuine connection with your followers?

Speaker 2:

So I'm going to preface this first before I answer. That was saying engagement sucks right now on Instagram okay like.

Speaker 2:

Let's just, let's just call it what it is. Instagram engagement sucks and it's, but it's still honestly like. Right now, the average engagement on the platform is hovering just under one percent engagement. It's probably about 0.8.9 as the average across the platform, which sounds horrible. You're saying like 1% engagement, but understand that. Like on Facebook, it's 0.1%. You know, on things like Twitter it's 0.01%. So at 1%, it's actually exponentially higher and the only platform that has higher engagement would be TikTok. So it's still one of the best platforms for engagement, even though it sucks, and it sucks for a lot of reasons. We've had a lot of changes in the last four years. Reels came out four years ago. We had a pandemic four years ago. There's been major shifts to how people use and consume content and create content on the platform, so it's created this massive shift. So I have 28,000 followers and I'll get 30 likes on a photo. Like it's statistically impossible to get that low of engagement on a photo but I'm like it's so impossible.

Speaker 2:

But it's not always about that engagement. So, that being said, the things that are going to do the best on the platform is to have a range of activity, a range of content. I typically recommend that you want to post on average ideally in a perfect world three to five times a week. If that sounds like too much, then just do one a week and use this same idea, but do it so you would do one post every week instead of one post, you know, ever, or one. Instead of doing three posts a week, you're going to do three every one every week for three weeks and then mix up the rotation. So the key is to do one photo, one carousel and one reel. So we want to mix up the types of content, because if you're only doing reels, you're alienating the people like me, who love to look at the feed. If you're only creating feed content, you're alienating the people who want videos. And carousels give you double the chance for exposure. So carousels will. If you log in once, you don't interact with it. When you log in again, they show you that same post with the second image in the sequence. So carousels give you extra exposure. So we want to be ideally doing those three posts a week. Or, like I said, do a carousel this week, a feed post next week and then a reel, the third week, kind of thing. So kind of keep that momentum and then within that, so ideally, if you have those kind of three to five posts a week, one of those should be a personal post. Personal for me is about me as a human, as a mom, as a business owner, because it's me, I'm my brand. If you are a bigger organization, personal may be things like behind the scenes meet the team, your mission, your value, your community involvement. Personal is something that makes people connect with you for who you are as a brand.

Speaker 2:

The second post is going to be educational. You're providing value. You're giving something that they didn't know. They needed Tips, tutorials. You know industry news, you know anything that's going to give something of value. That's going to be quality to them. So if your you know to toddlers, you're going to have educational content on how to entertain your kid in the rain, how to entertain your kid when it's hot outside, that would be educational content, right.

Speaker 2:

Then the third thing is your sales post. So you are going to push your product, your service right. You have to have content in there and it doesn't have to be a quote sales post, but it has to be something about your business products You're working on, you're coming up on a new launch, teasing that launch. You're going to have content related to you know here discounts available or sale this weekend or whatever it is. So there's no magic ratio. It's not that everything has to be like an exact 20 or 30% or that sort of thing, but if you're doing three posts per sequence, we want, kind of that, one of each post to cover each of those categories and then mix it up. So this week you're real might be educational, next week you're real might be personal. Right, we don't want it to always be the same thing and that's going to keep the diversity so that you're not always doing the same thing for the same people, because if they're not interacting with it you start to fall algorithmically.

Speaker 1:

When you keep it variety, you keep them interested, they keep interacting, you stay higher in the field, gotcha, that makes a lot of sense and I've seen some people do this and I'm not sure how you feel about it, but they literally like can all of their past historical content and will make their whole entire profile reels. I'm like why? What are you doing?

Speaker 2:

That's honestly like the worst advice I would ever. I mean, like there are some people out there who are video creators and they have created an audience around being video based. I get it. Like, if that's your brand, I get it, but for 98% of the population of brands out there, no like. It's such it's so alienating because if I don't log into the reels tab, I'm not going to see your contact. I mean, I might still see it in the feed if I follow you, but if I don't consume reels, I'm not going to watch it, and if I don't watch it, instagram's not going to serve it to me.

Speaker 2:

They're waiting for photos to serve me because they know that's what I consume. So you have to have that variety. You can't go all in on one or the other.

Speaker 1:

I love that advice and even just from like a user perspective, I appreciate that advice. Algorithm aside, you still got to think about the people.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and sometimes you do Like. Sometimes I will admit like I'll fall into, like the Reels feed and I just want to scroll and look at random videos, but most of the time I'm in the feed videos and but most of the time I'm in the feed I want to see the feed posts. I want, like.

Speaker 1:

I want I'm a reader, I'm not a listener, like I don't don't have the audio, like the auditory input.

Speaker 2:

I like to read the input right. So when I have to watch a video I'm like, oh, you're not getting to the point that I want to like move it along right goldfish attention span folks goldfish attention span. You got three seconds, if that all right well, and that's why rules are so popular, right, because they're so short. You gotta, you gotta, get to that fast all right, let's talk about some instagram features.

Speaker 1:

They are obviously like you mentioned. They're changing a lot. You could say constantly how outside of us following you which again folks you know, I can't say it enough do it the link for our listeners that are listening live. It's already in the chat. Thanks, kaylee, and it'll be in our show notes, of course. How do you stay on top of these updates, jen, and what is your process for adapting some of those strategies as they come along?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So first I'm going to say on average we have 10 to 12 updates a month.

Speaker 2:

So, it's a lot right. So don't don't let that scare you. That's my job. You're like, my job is to figure out what the updates are, and then I tell you what you need to know. And that's the biggest thing, right? Like there's all these like they're always testing, they're always rolling out a beta feature, then, like someone posts about it and you get access, but nobody else has access, and there's all these things that impact that. Do you need to worry about it or not?

Speaker 2:

So, like you said, follow me, sign up for my newsletter. My newsletter goes out the first Wednesday of every month and it breaks down all the Instagram updates and tells you what you actually need to know about. If it matters, I will post about it and tell you what matters. If I'm not posting about it, it's not that big of a deal, but I will make sure that people understand what those new changes mean for them and their business. For me, I again, because this is what I do, a lot of it is fed to me. I have, like, I literally had a woman message me yesterday and she's like Jen, have you seen this new feature? Like, people know who I am and what I do and they want to share news and updates, so I get a lot of you know, screenshots and beta.

Speaker 2:

You know exposure to things from people sharing. I do follow certain blogs, certain uh content creators who are inherently known for kind of scraping into the back end of the platform and leaking things before Instagram releases them.

Speaker 2:

So I I have my sources around that are. They're all public sources and everything um that I follow. One of the biggest ones I'll follow is social media today. Um, they are a website of aggregate blog, of all social media content, but they're uh, Adam is the guy who, um, uh, writes for them primarily, and he's my god yeah on it.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, as you have to be sleeps right.

Speaker 2:

So that like. And then matt navarra is one of my go-to's as well. He's been uh, sticking into the back end of facebook for years and years and he's he's so humble, it's like. I've met him multiple times, I consider him a friend and it's he's just the most humble person and I'm like, but he's like literally the person that everybody in social media follows for what's happening in the world.

Speaker 2:

Right, so and so, but yeah, I go through, I dissect all these things that are coming in and and I typically, you know, even Adam Mazary will come out and he'll be like this is why our platform does these things.

Speaker 2:

And he starts talking about it and I'm like, like, and I'll start reading behind the lines kind of thing and I've got so many, I'll put reels up or posts and be like this is why you don't need to freak out about this, you know, or or whatever it is. So I have the advantage of having been so deep in the platform for so long that when someone says this is, you know, recommended, I'm like, yeah, that's not gonna work and but that just comes from experience and that's where you know, like I said, I get to be the specialist, you all get to be the generalist.

Speaker 1:

Just follow me and I'll make sure you know I love it Well, and I think I just want to touch on something that you just said right there. That perspective and that historical perspective and wisdom was something that came up during our the end of our conversation during our masterclass on Wednesday Cause at Together Digital. We like to have deep and vulnerable conversations as women who work in a space that is ever evolving and actually does have a lot of ageism, and as women who have worked in the space. Most of our members have 10 plus years of experience, bordering on 20 in some instances. So we've been around as long as all of this has been, and I think a lot of us feel like we're kind of like we get put into this space of like aging out.

Speaker 1:

But what you just said right there, it was what I told them. Like that's the mindset you should have. I have the historical knowledge, I have the wisdom, I have the perspective to tell you, when I see things coming down the line and you're all freaking out, I'm like chill, it's like chill, it's cool.

Speaker 2:

I've seen this before exactly you know right and, and it's so true, right like, and that doesn't mean that you know, we're always right, you know, and things are changing and but we've seen dozens right hundreds thousands of evolutions of these platforms, like we remember facebook when it was a college-based platform.

Speaker 1:

No pay to play open API. Those were the days baby Right Graph search.

Speaker 2:

Remember when graph search was like the big thing and when you know like it's just. We've seen the evolution of these platforms and we know inherently when something's a big deal and when it's like a smoke and mirrors big deal right like there's. These platforms will come out and there's been so many times where some little tiny change in terms of service or some little comment is made and the you know, let's call it the media, the aggregate blogs, will pick it up and run with it like it, it is catastrophic.

Speaker 2:

You know world changing and I'm like you know it's been like this isn't even something new, but you just happened to find it Exactly.

Speaker 1:

We've been here long enough. Yeah, I agree, and I think it's just a matter of internal narrative and perspective, and I do think so. It's like it's so easy to be passionate about this space and to be and so many of the women within our group are just consistent learners and always hungry to learn and grow but then there is that intimidation factor and that fear factor of being cast out as irrelevant or too old to be in social media and it's like I just really just wanted to take a moment to pause and dispel that, because I think I'm just calling BS on it. And I think that you have perspective, you have wisdom and then you also have collective power and knowledge. And I think, jen, the thing I also love about what everything that you're doing is that you do so much to share.

Speaker 1:

Like you are not knowledge hoarding or power hoarding. Like you are like open book sharing. You've written books, literally multiple books, books. You've got like a tremendous um channel that you know. You're just really giving really great tips. Like you are walking the walk, talking the talk, all of the things. And I think that that's so helpful because, again, it's like you shouldn't have again. Do it all, be it all. Yes, ask for the help that you need. There's people around that are willing to help you. Know, know, you don't always have to be the expert.

Speaker 2:

I always say you can have it all, but you can't do it all.

Speaker 1:

Right, exactly.

Speaker 2:

And the same thing in like in this right Like, you can have it all. You can be the generalist, you can have all the experience, but you can't do it all. You have to go to resources for the information. You have to have a team to support you. You have to, like know where to go to find out okay, is that change relevant? Or you know when your client comes to you and goes. I heard we have to do reels and you're like, well, okay, yes, but you now need to pay me an extra three thousand dollars a month for you, like, because the time that it takes right like, whatever that is it's, these things are all.

Speaker 2:

It's so easy for people to just say, well, just create some videos for me, or well, why can't you handle my dms for me? Or why can't like there's there's so much that go into these things and if they want you to do that extra level of expertise you need to be confident for it.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely preach, friend. All right, all right, away from disclaimer, away from that public service announcement. All right, let's talk some more techniques, because, again, you just always got them in spades and, having looked at your feed recently, I have some clues. But I would also be curious to know if you could give us a sneak peek at two, maybe one, advanced Instagram strategy that you're really digging right now that you'd like to share with our listeners.

Speaker 2:

So my biggest thing right now is, again, this is one of these things. When Instagram says we do, they're big on direct messages right now and they are pushing hard for people to be in direct messages in the DMs, it all goes down in the DMs, right, but it's not just for the direct message sake. What people don't realize is that Instagram has made direct messages a personal relationship. So, amy, if you send me a DM on Instagram and I reply to you, we now have what's considered a personal relationship. We went from dating to married like one conversation, but in that process, instagram goes well. You clearly want to know what each other are doing. You're having a conversation. So if you're following me, my content now ranks higher in your feed because you clearly have a direct personal relationship. It prioritizes my content in your feed, my content in your feed.

Speaker 2:

So it's really important that we are getting our customers into our DMs, and so we want to look at strategies that open up that communication, because there's algorithmic advantage, but also it goes back to the customer service, the relationships, the loyalty, the interactions, building that time and communication with your audience. So we want to do things like, instead of saying, go to the link in my bio, which still works. I use link in bio for anything that's evergreen. You want to sign up for my newsletter? Go to my link in bio. But if I'm talking about a podcast, if I'm talking about a webinar, if I'm talking about something that's a short-term thing, it's always send me a DM and I'll get you the link or comment link below and I'll send you the link. Dm and I'll get you the link or comment link below and I'll send you the link, because now it's giving them a reason to show up in my DMs. It's algorithmically beneficial. It's a hot lead awareness. I know who's actually clicking on those links and interested, versus go to my link and buy out their blind link.

Speaker 2:

I don't know who clicked them. Now I start to know who those people are and they're hot leads because they have to take extra effort to request it. So those are advanced techniques to get them in there. But even your stories, right? If you're putting Instagram stories up and someone does a quick reply with the emoji responses, that's a direct message oh, awesome, so respond, they send you a quick reply. Don't just heart to like it. If they did the laughing emoji be like oh my gosh, so funny, right. And then they come back and like oh my God, it was so funny, you have a communication you know.

Speaker 2:

So we want to have those opportunities wherever possible to encourage the direct message incoming and then foster that conversation. It doesn't mean jump into sales mode. It doesn't mean they send you an emoji reply and you're like great, we have a sale this weekend, right, unless it was related to a sale promotion. But it opens up that dialogue, right. Like I don't know how many times I've had somebody go, you know. Hey, jen, you know I just saw you posted about your daughter da, da, da, da. And I'm like oh yeah, and they're like we start talking about that.

Speaker 2:

And next thing, you know, it's like well, when's your next speaking gig? Oh well, I'm probably. You know I'm going to be here this. Oh great. Well, I can't make it to that one, but can you let me know when? The next one is Like it starts pushing that conversation in a natural, organic way into leads and sales, versus just posting content out there and hoping that the world is consuming it. It allows you to move in that direction. So my best advice right now is to really focus on that direct message strategy. How are you going to get people in there? And, like we said at the beginning, when we're talking about customer service, know that whoever's managing your social media.

Speaker 2:

Whoever's managing that Instagram account has the ability to answer those questions, that is prepared to handle it from a customer service perspective and to do it from a relationship building, not just a here's the link, right, but to then be like so glad you're interested, here's the link. Let me know if you have any questions Well-trained.

Speaker 1:

Well-trained on the brand and the voice and, yes, really knowing how to keep that engagement going. Love it, that was gold, Love it. We've got a few minutes left. Let's try to get through these last few questions. Oh my goodness, this is so good. Let's see what was the most surprising thing you learned about Instagram's impact on business during your career so far. What was the most surprising thing that you've learned about Instagram so far during this whole kind of like?

Speaker 2:

span of experience. You know that's a good question. I think my how much lately, I would say they have moved towards copying TikTok.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, meta was the king, like, meta was the king on the hill. And when they bought up Instagram or it was Facebook at the time and they bought up Instagram and then have since become meta, but it was. You know, I wasn't upset. When they got amalgamated into Facebook I was like, good, this is going to give them the back end, they can do the ads like it's going to help from a business perspective. It's only going to grow the platform. But they were always the King on the Hill and TikTok, really, you know, took them down a couple notches and I have to admit, like it's. So. I just feel like now everybody's a copycat and it's like now you got TikTok over here creating photos that you know you can swipe through carousel photos on TikTok.

Speaker 1:

You're like what? Where am I? What platform am I on? Again, I'm still on Instagram.

Speaker 2:

Instagram is over here. I'm like we get to a point where they just lose their uniqueness, and one of the things I've always loved about Instagram is how unique they were. They, like I said, they don't do the links and they've always been photo first. Now you have Adam Mazary saying they're video first I'm like, are we not?

Speaker 2:

I'm like, why? Why would we be video first? You've never, it's always been photo first. I think from a disappointment perspective, but also shocked that they would literally see that much of a threat in TikTok that they wanted to copy it that much.

Speaker 1:

Because there's still so just so much opportunity with where they are currently. I think yes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Because, again, all of us marketers are like I don't want to be making a million videos a day either. And then even consumers are like I don't. Like you said, I don't want sound on always. I sometimes want to just be looking at pretty pictures.

Speaker 2:

Well, and the fact that everything cycles back around like the short form video has been a thing for, let's call it, the last five years. You know, the pandemic definitely kind of sped up the, the consumption of short form video, but TikTok's over here going to 10, 30, 60 minute videos. I'm like oh, so where that?

Speaker 1:

long form.

Speaker 2:

Form. Content is like we're back, Yep.

Speaker 1:

Yep, it's always. It's always shifting and changing. All right, I'm going to ask one more quick question and then we're going to go to some rapid fire questions in case we don't get anything from the audience. But I want to make sure we get to the rapid fire, cause they're fun. Um so, looking ahead, what do you think will be the next trend or feature on Instagram that businesses should get ready for?

Speaker 2:

I don't know if I can predict any specific trend. I think Instagram is doing more for businesses and I think that's what's worth paying attention to right now is, you know, they've done so much for quote creators. Right, they're like they want to make sure creators have all these tools, but in the last definitely in the last year we're seeing more for businesses. You know they every now and then they'll launch new features, but I think they're really starting to recognize the business functionality and that's been, you know, more functionality in things like the web version. It's been more functionality and direct messages and I'm really hoping and expecting that we'll see more of that to support brands that. You know one of the things they're testing right now is actually finally finally having admin access. You know where you can have some, but like other people that don't have your password, that can get into your profile.

Speaker 2:

So I think we'll see more of that shift towards what brands and businesses need to be successful with the platform, and I hope that we see more of that.

Speaker 1:

Me too, I do, because I think again as a small business ourselves. Honestly, instagram I feel like we got more attraction, attention and needs from that and LinkedIn than probably Facebook and X. We're not even really on anymore.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, oh, this has been so much fun, jen. All right, we're going to do a power lounge first. I'm calling this our power round, and I might start doing this from here on out, because when I'm on other podcasts, I always feel like this is just a fun way to wrap it up. So, all right, are you ready, jen? Okay.

Speaker 2:

Let's do it. Let's do it.

Speaker 1:

All right, instagram filter or no filter? All right, favorite emoji.

Speaker 2:

I'm like a smiley face emoji.

Speaker 1:

I'm always there for a good smiley face, reels or stories. Which do you prefer?

Speaker 2:

Oh God Stories.

Speaker 1:

All right. Most overused hashtag For me or in general.

Speaker 2:

Let's go in general. In general, things like hashtag love, like.

Speaker 1:

it's just like eight quadrillion people use that hashtag Like just don't even All right For you of you use hashtag, then uh hashtag gen strats way to stick with. Way to stick with your hashtag strategy, though gotta stick with it all right.

Speaker 2:

And then, last but not least, favorite instagram account to follow for inspiration so I don't know if it's my favorite for inspiration, but it's one of my favorite accounts is actually the tsa um yep, the people that make you take your shoes off at the airport. Uh, it is one guy that runs that account and it is dad joke central it is I love it it is fun.

Speaker 2:

They have the worst visuals known to mankind, uh, but their captions are witty. They are so great with educational information in their stories. It's just. It's an all around perfect example of like who should not do well on Instagram. Just killing it on Instagram.

Speaker 1:

I adore it. Well, I guess they're going to get one more follow today, because I'll be sure to check it out as well. I'm trying to remember I don't know if any members are on and listening right now that can drop it into the live chat. I'm having like a Friday brain fart moment, but I feel like Dixie shared an example I don't know if it was the TSA and that'd be funny if it was but there was another like very kind of blasé type of like government organization that she shared as like a really cool LinkedIn profile that she's like it's amazing, you all should follow it. And I was like, oh, because again it is.

Speaker 1:

It's such a like you said, it's such a creator space and I think you don't have to come at it as all business If you really just kind of look at it as a tool and a way to connect it's community. That's what attracted you to it first. Right Was it was a community platform as a way to engage and talk to your customers and build relationships. Yeah, you could have something really great there. Oh, here we go. Thanks, julie, the New Jersey Gov Okay, the New Jersey Gov site. So there you go. You've got one more to add there, jen.

Speaker 1:

I will have to check that one out for sure. Thanks, julie. All right everyone. Thank you so much for listening today. I hope you all learned as much as I did and enjoyed the conversation. Jen, thank you so much again. It was an absolute pleasure having you here with us. Follow Jen's trends on Instagram Also. We included her LinkedIn above and we'll include those in the show notes. Jen, it was great. I hope you all have a fantastic.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much, this was fun. Have a fantastic Friday, everybody. We will see you next week. Until then, keep asking, keep giving and keep growing. Bye, everybody.

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Amy Vaughan

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