Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share
Digital is a demanding and competitive field. And women are still grossly underpaid & underrepresented. But we are not powerless; we have each other. Together Digital Power Lounge is your place to hear authentic conversations from women in digital who have power to share. Listen and learn from our amazing guests along with host Amy Vaughan, Owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital. Together Digital is a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital who choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. To learn more, visit www.togetherindigital.com.
Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share
The Element Of Glitterbomb Leadership | Kari Ginsburg | Power Lounge S2 E25
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THIS WEEK'S TOPIC:
Have you ever worn a mask to fit in? Felt like a round peg in a square hole? This episode is your sanctuary, as we journey alongside Kari Ginsburg from Uproar Coaching LLC, the Head Badass in Charge, who bares it all about the importance of being comfortable in your own skin and leading authentically. From her transition from a federal job to running a coaching practice, Kari illustrates how her journey has supported both personal and organizational transformations.
Do you feel the pressure of traditional leadership styles weighing you down? Kari's radical approach will open your eyes. She shares her insights on breaking away from the patriarchal leadership mold and the importance of creating safe spaces to explore our unique leadership styles. As an introvert herself, she offers effective strategies on how to amplify your voice and hold your ground. Listen, as we unravel the challenges of imposter syndrome and perfectionism, and discover how to build supportive communities and regain control over our narratives.
Last but not least, change is inevitable and it's high time we stopped reacting but started embracing it! Let Kari guide you through her proven six-steps to effectively navigate change. From understanding and gathering evidence, to anticipating outcomes and finding support, your journey through change is about to get a whole lot easier. Tune in as we end our enlightening conversation with a casual chat about Kari's love for rescue dogs and true crime, and how they surprisingly tie into her coaching approach. Whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting out, this episode promises to redefine your outlook on leadership.
LINKS:
Kari's LinkedIn
Uproar Coaching
How To Make Your Own Mission Statement
Core Values
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Welcome to our weekly Power Lounge, your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn and I am the owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power and connections.
Speaker 1:Join the movement at wwwtogetherindigitalcom. Let's get started Today. In our latest episode, we are going to discover how you can amplify your unique style. We are going to talk about leadership styles, specifically, unapologetically, to be your authentic self and refine what leadership means to you. Carrie Ginsburg nerds out on supporting people through personal and organizational transformation. She is a trauma-informed professional certified coach through the International Coaching Federation and one of the first 500 recipients of the globally recognized certified change management professional accreditation. Congrats, carrie, that's awesome. Thank you, the HBIC that's the head badass in charge. I love that. We both like that. We're creative with our titles Of the Upwork Coaching LLC.
Speaker 1:Carrie supports women and family leaders who want to spread out, get loud and be boss bitches. In her free time, carrie enjoys anything true crime. I'm with you there, friend, snuggling with her rescue dogs, which we've been discussing all as we've been prepping actually today, and she is losing the battle against the weeds in her garden. You know, carrie, we are in this together in so many ways. Just based on your bio, I'm so excited to have you here. Thanks for being with us today.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me. I have been looking forward to this conversation all week, in fact, I so infrequently know what day of the week it is, but today I woke up and was like it's Friday, it's power hour, let's do it.
Speaker 1:That is so fantastic. Well, I'm just as equally enthusiastic One. I mean always it's good to come to Friday, but yeah, to always come and have an interesting and engaging conversation with passionate women like yourself. It's exactly why we keep doing this. So thanks for showing up, carrie. Rad, thanks for having me, so you were a little bit more about yourself, your journey from being a trauma-informed coach to becoming your HBIC, your head badass in charge at Upwork Coaching.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you. Well, coaching has always been part of my leadership toolkit. I was an early leader in the federal space. I am formerly a federal employee. I have also worked in leadership roles in Fortune 500 companies. Early early in my career, I was a teacher, so I was leading a classroom for high school students, all of those things. But Coaching has always been something that's been really, really important to me supporting people as they discover within themselves the ways to get the things that they want. And I was coaching as an actual side hustle for many, many years. Just like people would say like I need support, have you talked to Carrie that was at work. I need support. Have you talked to Carrie? These were friends outside of work, connecting me with strangers or other people in their communities or their network, their circle.
Speaker 2:It wasn't until early, early days of the pandemic, when my team within a Fortune 500 company was, we underwent an organizational realignment. It was very poorly handled, which is never great, never feels good as a person who's impacted by change that way, knowing that things could have been better. But we were realigned under a very toxic leader and for several months I tried to protect my team. I tried to protect the relationships that we had established. I was doing a lot of self-coaching at that time and still coaching on the side. But because it was the pandemic, all of the extracurriculars that I had that were really nourishing my soul went away and so I was working for a bad leader. And then I was coaching and I was miserable in my day job and I was finding a lot of joy in my coaching. And I came downstairs one day after a particularly hard day and I said to my husband I'm really unhappy and he was like I know.
Speaker 1:You're like, oh, it's not hiding it, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I said I really I would like to make a change. And he said I know. And I said and I think I can go out and do this coaching thing and do it full time, and he figuratively swept everything off the dining room table.
Speaker 2:We got our laptops. We set everything up and figured out a way to make it work, and so in June 2020, upward Coaching came to be, and by November 2020, I had left my full-time job and went full time. Well, I left my full-time corporate job and went full time into Upward and never look back, and I love that you are the chief empowerment officer. I do appreciate also that the two of us have found fun in creating our own titles, and I think that, as business owners, we have the flexibility to do that. But I also think, if you were a leader within an organization, there's a way to come up with a working title that feels true to what it is that you were doing in the day to day. That maybe sets you apart from the corporate structure and also reflects who you are as a leader and what you are bringing. That is different from your peers.
Speaker 1:I agree with you. From an entrepreneurial perspective, that was one of the first things I did as soon as I bought the company was like, oh, I'm changing my title, I still want to be a CEO, that's still my role, that's what I do, but it really stands for more than an executive. And a funny story. I used to, when I was still working in agencies. I would so often play the role of so many. I was a creative copywriter, eventually creative director, but long before I was even officially promoted and given the salary of a creative director, I was often introduced on the phone to clients as an associate creative director or a creative director so that they could kind of bolster the validation of who was on the phone. And so some of my coworkers probably who listened to this podcast remember this, because some of them have even sent me some of my old emails with my signature.
Speaker 1:I used to just mess with people and change my signature to just random ass things from time to time, because I was just like what does the title even mean? You know, I was like a penguin choreographer. One day I was a centipede shoe shine technician, another day yeah, people didn't even read it or notice, and I just really wanted to prove the point that you know titles, I get why we have them, but that doesn't necessarily distinguish. You know everything that we do and all that we are. So as soon as I came into the role of owner digital I was like, yeah, I'm changing my time, so I relate to that a whole lot and I just again have this whole philosophy and idea of titles. I think, like I said, they're important from an understanding, function and purpose in the sense of those that you serve. Yeah, it doesn't implicate value in my opinion per se.
Speaker 2:I absolutely love everything about that. This is going to be an amazing conversation. Let's keep going, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I also want to give Kudos to your husband. I had a very similar moment where he looked at you're buying this company. You need good support. Again, it doesn't have to be a spouse, oh you know you. But you need to find when you're about. If it's a good company, you need to find a partner. But if any of you that are listening or interested in going out on your own for your that very scary leap of that entrepreneurial journey, you do need those kind of people who are going to just put everything else aside for a minute and sit down with you and help you figure it out. It's really hard to do it alone otherwise. So I love you sharing that story and, again, like Kudos to your, your partner. It sounds amazing.
Speaker 2:He's great, yeah, most days.
Speaker 1:Most days, I know, right, that was a good day, that was a banner day, right?
Speaker 2:But it's, but it's funny because I mean, he's been very supportive across this whole journey. As you know, there's a lot of highs and heartbreak when you are a business owner, but finding the finding the right people along the journey to support you at those different moments too has been really important.
Speaker 1:I've had so many really interesting relationships just because of this leap, so yeah, so specifically, what inspired you to specialize in supporting women and fem leaders in their their personal and professional transformations?
Speaker 2:Well, I found that, particularly when I first started in leadership, which is when I was in my mid to late twenties, not only was I one of the youngest people around the board table, but I often was the youngest female around the table and one of very few females in the room, and it it it made me really question why there weren't more women in leadership and why there was that gender disparity. And I remember reading in I don't know, it might have been 2019, early 2020, a Harvard business review article about women who were starting their countries and women who had countries, companies, women who were starting their companies and women who were assuming leadership roles, and how, within their first three years, they either continue to ascend or they continue to really stabilize and grow their business, or they folded up shop and left. They quit their job, they found something else. It was really heartbreaking and it was something like 67% of women who were were just launching, were folding up and taking their taking their ball home, and I really just liked that, and some of the reasons that were brought forward in that article is because so often in these rooms, yes, women are given a seat at the table, but they aren't given full permission at the table right, they still have to speak very quickly or quietly or not at all.
Speaker 2:So they have to be quiet or they literally have to take up as little space as possible, whether with their ideas or even like physically sitting in the room, and they just they don't have the authority, they have to demure. I can't tell you how many times I was in a room where I was sitting at a table with my peers and I was expected to take notes.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't even like hey, can somebody take notes today? And then nobody volunteered. So I raised my hand. It was like and Carrie, can you take notes? And it's like am I taking notes because I have the best handwriting?
Speaker 2:No it's terrible lefty backslint, I'm not going to type. Is I'm taking notes because I'm the best note taker? Absolutely not. You just assumed that because I'm a female, I'm going to secretary this moment and that made me really mad and it just felt like it was patriarchal bullshit.
Speaker 2:And I believe that women and fem leaders, particularly those of us who are a little non-traditional, deserve to take up as much space as we want and as we need, and to speak louder and to own our authority and to own our voices and to just be the boss bitches that we know to be and to not let the male, pale, stale way of doing things continue to hold us back. So, as I was looking to establish uproar and figure out who it was I wanted to support, it only felt natural to focus on this area, these people who we are all still looking around, trying to find ways to be seen, to be heard, to have an impact, to have a legacy and to not feel ashamed for being different. And so that is what I have to join the privilege of doing every day. I love it.
Speaker 1:It's fantastic it leads so nicely to and beautifully into the next question. In a world that tempers the female instinct and leadership style that are historically patriarchal, what we see we see a lot of women doing that right that internalize patriarchy is real. We think we have to be a certain way and usually it's acting like a man to lead, but how? Do you women right.
Speaker 1:How do you help women discover and amplify their unique leadership style, like unabashedly, because there's deep seated programming and social conditioning that has to be undone, I think, to get there, it's a lot.
Speaker 2:I think it's important to acknowledge that every journey is different and everyone's secret sauce is going to, you know, have its own flavor. So when I first meet with somebody, we start our time together by really exploring where they are and where they want to be, and I realize that's sort of the foundation of coaching where are you today, where you want to be? And then our time together is spent getting through there. But I think it becomes obvious in those conversations really, where someone is most proud of the things that set them apart, but those are oftentimes also the things that they have been taught or preconditioned to downplay or make beige. I've experienced this in my life. I know when you and I first connected, we talked about this too. Right, this is the thing that makes me special. Oh no, that's the thing that threatens the way we've always done things. So we can't have that.
Speaker 2:Let's mentor you in a different direction, and it might look like unexpected ideas. It might look like nonlinear thinking and problem solving. It might look like how you support the people who report to you in the day to day. Right, are you a people first leader? It might be how your lived experiences or education informs the way that you go about your day to day right.
Speaker 2:My undergraduate degree is in musical theater and I can't tell you how many times, how many interviews, how many conversations I've had where that has felt like my circus act, right.
Speaker 2:They're like Carrie's the theater person and I was like am I supposed to act Right Now?
Speaker 2:What do you want me to do with that?
Speaker 2:And that's just one, one item, one piece of who I am. And so I think really that, in terms of discovering and amplifying your unique leadership style, it's really spending some time reflecting honestly about the things that make you different from a really objective point of view, just plainly stating this is the thing that I do, this is the box outside of which I live, and then figuring out how comfortable you are, starting to lean more into that space instead of away from it, starting to be to find pride in confidence of owning the things that make you weird and then waving that freak flag a little bit more proudly. But I think something that I said that I really want to reiterate is that you have to feel safe doing that right. If you are in an environment where it is really not safe for you, for whatever reason, to be yourself, that's a different conversation. Let's find you a place where you feel safer to bring as much of you as you are prepared to bring into all facets of your life every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great point, I think, finding those spaces and places in which it's safe for us to kind of step into our full selves and almost in a way that feels like just a safe place to explore and experiment. I think that's what I want about together, digital and the community that we've established and created is. I get to see a lot of these women who are coming into the digital space or are trying to establish their thought, leadership or leadership style, and this is such a great place for them to kind of safely explore what that feels like, what that looks like, because it's twofold right. I think your story about how you came into coaching was interesting is a lot of people kept saying, oh, go to carry, you need support, you need advice, go to carry. Clearly, you had a gift of wisdom and perspective that people found helpful.
Speaker 1:But the other side of it is, too, is authentically owning what it is that you do want to put out there into the world, right, because that's the catch is, oftentimes, especially women, we get rewarded for those things we're good at, right, like organizing, taking notes, taking care of others. So those are the things that default to us. Don't assume that just other people are saying that's the thing you're good at, that, that is the thing that is truly you. So I think that's what can get really tricky. Is we spend so much time trying to blend in that it almost feels weird to know how, when and where to stick out.
Speaker 2:Oh, gosh, that is so true. And I will say I spent an extensive part of my career sort of putting on what I call business carry right Like. That was the greatest acting performance of my life. I had a uniform of like business attire that I put on to go to work and when I came home I like took it was like taking off armor and then putting on the things that like made me feel good and made me feel like me and like unwinding. At the end of the day felt like such a relief, like that idea you know we get. There's that very like metaphorical idea of like coming home. But that was really it right. Driving home from work or commuting home from work every day and knowing that like I could get through the door and I can, I could put on the things that like just really spoke to me and not worry about what anybody else said or thought about. It was just amazing and I will say it was exhausting and people can tell. People can tell when you were not actually being your full self. They can't tell, they can't necessarily like pinpoint what it is, but they know that you were holding something back and that creates inauthentic connection. That creates not real or not, not intentional relationships.
Speaker 2:And it wasn't until I was very, very ill in 2012. I had a big surgery. I was home recovering for eight weeks and during that eight weeks I I literally was like well, I, I just. Time is too precious and I can't keep giving away my energy to this thing that isn't serving me anymore. So, like I, I cut off all my hair and I started wearing a little bit make, a little bit more makeup. Close, that like looked a well, I mean, I was a little spicier makeup and like close, that looked a little bit more like me. Right, like I have a, I still have a suit. Like in the closet, it's my like museum piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's like a charcoal gray suit with metallic pink pinstripe and I wear it with these like vintage velvet pumps and I just I thought I looked amazing and I felt strong and I felt good and I was still in business attire, but it felt more like me and when I came through the door and I looked different and I was still behaving as I had behaved before, with my big ideas, with nonlinear thinking, a little bit less than expected, there was something about physically looking different that made people either like they just got out of the way I don't, I don't, I can't say that they were scared of me, but there was some weariness that came in with like uh-oh, uh-oh, my ability to get things done just skyrocketed because I wasn't hiding anymore. I wasn't hiding and I think that's also why the draw came of have you talked to Kari? Because people, people could observe that the change that I allowed in myself was bringing good things to me and they wanted to feel that same relief and release for themselves too.
Speaker 1:I love it, that's great advice. That's great advice for just ways to explore and feel out and find your own uniqueness and to kind of see not just how you respond physically, like how you feel your body, but also how others respond to you in environments, to see like whether or not it's it's, it's getting through. Yeah, I agree, I mean the multitude of masks that we wear and I mean my heart always goes out to you to even more marginalized groups of women. Oh gosh, the number of masks that you wear and the gears that you have to shift in a day can be so exhausting. And you know when you're not able to or you don't feel safe to live authentically in that space of yourself and you've got to constantly be shifting gears between work and friends and coworkers and events and things like that. It's just, it's. It just makes me tired thinking about it.
Speaker 1:Let's get back onto the topic a little bit of leadership. Yes, we often hear about the importance of redefining leadership. What does that mean? What does leadership mean to you and how can us individuals those who are listening especially start to shape our own definitions?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, you know, I will say, for having been in business where I talked to non-traditional leaders and executives for several years, you were the second person, only since 2020, who has asked me what does leadership mean to me? So thanks for asking that question. Sure, leadership means to me showing up every day, being present with integrity, with humility, with empathy, with honesty, with curiosity and a healthy dose of adventure, and I think that that can apply to not only like leading a team, but leading your life, and so, if you are thinking about how do I redefine or shape myself as a leader, all of those things that I mentioned are also values that are important to me. I mean, I would also throw in like kindness and play if I was to like really round out my values chart, but I would invite you, if you were thinking about where do I start to define myself as a leader, really doing some good, thinking about well, what do you value?
Speaker 2:What do you value in your life, what do you value in your relationships, what do you value at work, and how can you codify those values into a couple of words? And then do they apply to how you interact in a more professional environment? And if values feels like a little too woo for you. You can also always put together something like a purpose statement or a mission statement. Right, we do that at work all the time, but how often are you putting together a mission statement for yourself? And so the easy mad lib way to do that is to start with, like I, this is what.
Speaker 2:I do for this audience so that these outcomes right. So for uproar, if I was to put together that purpose statement and it's not only for uproar, it is for me as a coach. I offer safe spaces to executive women and femmes so that way they can amplify the things that make them different instead of hide them, and we can wave their freak flags proud together.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So you can either start with some values to help identify your leadership style or you can just give yourself a purpose statement. I realize it seems very simple for me to be like do this or this, but it really can be that simple, it can. Yeah, what you decide today doesn't have to stick with you forever. Right, it can evolve. Your style will evolve as you have more experiences, as you engage with other people, as you grow and develop as an individual, so you can come back and refine and redefine that as you yourself are growing.
Speaker 1:I love it. That's great advice. Values, I think, are super important. I think we don't spend enough time reflecting on what those truly are. Yeah, giving a lot of that away, that power away, to others.
Speaker 1:It also is a way that we over commit ourselves to the things that don't serve us. I think earlier about your story realizing like where you were working and the work you were doing wasn't fulfilling. I know so many women who are out there at companies right now that feel that way and it's because not because they're out of alignment with the values necessarily at work because they don't even have any idea of what their own true values are. And so when you're down and taking that time to reflect on what your values are, it'll give you the opportunity to create the boundaries that you need to sort of say yes to the things that will serve your value that's your purpose and no to the things that really don't. And boundaries, I know, are hard for us.
Speaker 1:But values have been something that as a group, we've been on about quite a bit, because we've got a goal getters workshop that we do at the beginning of every year and we actually help them. It speaks to all of those ambitious, goal driven women, but we kind of hit them a broadside a little bit with this idea of let's talk about yourself when you're 80 and are at the end of your life. Like what do you want to be remembered for? What's your legacy? Those are some of your values. Now let's talk about how we're going to set goals that are value based versus should based or title based or salary based, because, I mean, there's nothing wrong with having those kinds of goals, but just understand and know that they're not going to serve your purpose, they're not going to be the things, at the end of the day, that make you happy, and it's not going to be the thing they write on your headstone.
Speaker 2:You know? No, it absolutely will not, and so often those types of goals are driven by external factors and not internal ones.
Speaker 1:You are in service to somebody and not in service to yourself 100%, and then you wonder why you can't get through it and finish that goal. It's like, oh, you weren't even doing it for the right reasons to begin with.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or also, when you do it, you feel unfulfilled because it wasn't the right goal to begin with, and then you're left with this weird so what now? Yeah.
Speaker 1:I felt that as soon as I hit my six figure salary in my title at a certain point in agencies, I was like well, that was I'm here. Now what, yeah, yeah. What am I working towards Now? What am I doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and then we stay places longer than we should, for I mean anyway, that's a whole other conversation, I know right.
Speaker 1:Let's talk a little bit more about authenticity and leadership. Yeah, I know that you believe embracing authenticity is crucial in leadership. What advice do you have for someone who is looking to unapologetically be their authentic self in a leadership role, because that can be pretty darn scary.
Speaker 2:It can be and, like I said just a few minutes ago, I want you to feel safe doing this. So I would say start small, and it's not always. I mean I'm not asking you to like. If you are like a hell yes. Person and you are all in and you want to like, dye your hair blue and start screaming from the like, do it, do it. I am here Like I will catch you, let's go Right.
Speaker 2:But if you need a little bit more support, I would say start small, step by step, right, and so it can be as small as bringing forward a new idea. That might be a little bit unpopular in a meeting. It might even be if you're worried about doing that in a larger space. Find somebody to pre-socialize this idea with. Get somebody on your side, because it's so it's. It's much easier to be brave when you've got a partner in crime or a co-conspirator than it is when you're sort of out on that ledge by yourself. So I would say start with one idea, start with a spark. I would also say your relationships can serve you in very different ways, and so I would invite you to start. It's such a corporate word, but like start networking, start making friends with people who you wouldn't necessarily interact with in the day to day, or reach out to folks if you feel so inclined, if you feel comfortable, or look for an introduction from somebody who knows them, who's doing things differently or even in a different they're in a different place, but maybe they're doing something similar to you and share ideas and see where you can leverage each other's brilliance and expertise and then bring it back. But I think finding the support and starting small and starting with one idea can be really, really helpful.
Speaker 2:The second part of that, though Hmm, this is where it gets tricky. It's not backing down. Yeah, you have to do it. So if you bring something forward and it feels controversial, you can't backpedal. Right, you will feel like you want to, because it will feel easier to say, oh no, you're right, never mind. Or oh sure, we can look at this in a year. Or okay, yeah, I'll put together an exploratory team. But so often the right thing and the easy thing are not the same thing. No, the right thing is holding to the integrity of your voice, of your style, and pushing a little harder and knowing that tomorrow it will get a little easier, because leadership is a muscle that you exercise, so you will get stronger and that will feel easier, right.
Speaker 1:Co-hatch is a new kind of shared work, social and family space built on community. Members get access to workspace amenities like rock walls and sports simulators and more, to live a fully integrated life that balances work, family, well being, community and giving back. Co-hatch has 31 locations open or under construction nationwide, throughout Ohio, indiana, florida, pennsylvania, north Carolina, georgia and Tennessee. Visit wwwcohatchcom for more information. What kind of advice do you have for those who want to be in the role of leadership more but happen to be introverts? I think extraversion is overly hyped leadership quality.
Speaker 2:So I'm an overcompensating introvert. So this is a question that is near and dear to my heart because I have observed across my career where my peers who are extroverts it just always seems like it's easier for them.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's there. I mean I can be gregarious, but it takes a lot to dig within me to go in a room and shine that way. I have found that doing things more one-on-one and more in a way that I can plan for and then have downtime on the other side of it so like hype up time, experience, downtime is really, really helpful, because then it's I mean, I'm also a Virgo so I'm a little bit controlling, but like it helps me control more of the elements and then honor my energy and my working style.
Speaker 2:And so I think when we talk about leadership style, it doesn't need to be in conflict with how you like to get things done. In fact, I think how you lead can further expand how you do things. It just sort of brings it to an elevated level right? You get to sort of set the beat by which everybody else begins to dance groove.
Speaker 1:And you're modeling, if you're kind of living in that authentic space where you're leading in the way that suits you best, authentically, and you're not forcing it, you're being an example, you're modeling for others that this is possible, that there is another way, that there are a multitude of leadership styles out there that a lot of science is even proving are more productive for the bottom line, for retention, for employee satisfaction, for customer satisfaction than what we've seen. But I do know that I mean, that's just a common thing with, you know, again, being a bit of a personal development junkie. I've learned over the years that I come off very much as an extrovert but I'm very much an ambivert and then when I do Myers-Briggs, I'm an introvert.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Interestingly, but it's really because I think a lot of the time well one. I was always a talker, so I'm a verbal processor, but that doesn't necessarily make me an extrovert, I'm just a verbal processor. So learning and distinguishing those differences for me have been really helpful, and I think this is where you know any kind of self-awareness practices you can do, or personal development is a good tool and a good way to start to figure out what is your authentic leadership style, because you're going to find strength and ability to leverage those unique you know kind of ways in which you do work well and you can find yourself working better and well with others. So it's not to say that your introversion is a minus. It is a plus because you are using your ears more than your mouth, which is honestly what a lot of leaders need to know.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes. And I have seen some of the most impactful leaders that I have observed, and some people I mean are the people who they say I need to think about it. They say I don't know, but I'm going to get back to you. They bring the people along with them from their team who have the answers, so that way, they are not standing in independence from the people who they lead, they are standing behind the expertise and the brilliance of the people who are supporting the work in the day to day and giving them an opportunity to shine. And I think that that is beautiful, because it supports how you, how you are, perhaps how you best work as an introvert, it gives other people an opportunity to grow and shine and it demonstrates that leaders don't have to be the person they are. It's like the it's pyramid is upside down right. They are not at the top, they are at the bottom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I love it. I love that perspective. I love flipping things around like that, yes, and I also loved your advice just to make sure it isn't lost on anyone who's listening, who's still kind of struggling to find their voice and to speak up as finding champions. I loved your idea of pre-socializing the idea. Maybe they could be in the room with you that way Again, if you get mansplained or there's some appropriate going on where a guy explains your idea that you just shared and it could be another man, it's cool.
Speaker 1:We can leverage our allies but have someone else there to kind of reinforce your voice for a time, I think. But what you'll find, at least in my experience, what I found especially kind of once I hit that niche and understanding of just the extreme disparities for women, I was super privileged in my career. I went from a copywriter to creative director in like not even five years and it was because I had a lot of amazing male allies and champions. I was also childless for most of those years and it wasn't until I started having kids and got up to a certain level in my career that I started to feel very isolated and attended the 3% conference, which denoted the fact that only 3% of creative directors were women which blew my mind.
Speaker 1:I was like what, how did I not even know this? But then I look around me and I'm like, oh yeah, this makes sense. It's closer to 12% to 15%, which is great, but still obviously a very long way to go. But don't, I would say, don't, wait for permission necessarily Nobody's going to give you permission to start using your voice and leading. You really just find that internal resolve and reason and values, like you said earlier, in purpose to start to do that, and it's scary as shit at first, but then the outcome is afterwards. You actually feel pretty damn good about what you just did, because you stepped into your truth, you spoke it, people heard it and they're like light bulb and even if everybody in the room agrees and not everybody in the room likes somebody else I promise you in that room is thinking the same thing and thinking my God, I'm glad she said that.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's going to get out. Other people are going to start. I mean, it happened with me, I've seen it happen with other people. People are going to start coming to talk to you about their ideas and then you can become that ally, that champion for them. Particularly, I have found with folks who are on their way up right, they are looking for mentor, they are looking for advice, they're looking for somebody to soundboard against. And when they see that you are willing to do things differently, maybe, or maybe that you are starting to identify yourself a bit more as like a misfit or whatever that looks like right, you're gonna draw them too. They will find you and then it will become easier because you'll have your people, you will have your community.
Speaker 1:You attract. When you project your values and your perspective on the world, you get surrounded by more of the kinds of people that you are in alignment with. I am totally a product of that. So I get it. I get it. I wouldn't be sitting here doing this podcast right now, if I wouldn't have been talking about it more Cause again.
Speaker 1:It wasn't even necessarily impacting me per se, but I mean I still needed it. I became a member of Together Digital first and then CEO, and bought the company later down the line. But none of it would have been if it wouldn't have been for me just getting a little pissed off and being open and talking about it and sharing the data with my male coworkers and saying how can we work together to make this a more equitable place and a safe space for work? You'll be surprised what comes your way when you start to live in your truth.
Speaker 2:It's funny that you say that too, that you got pissed off. I have a client who was the only. I'm trying to think about how much I can tell without giving away confidentiality, cause confidentiality is very important to me. But she was the only female partner at a very high powered law firm in a healthcare arena and she saw some opportunities come and go that were not, and she raised her hand for them. She spoke out about them and they just like, oh, nothing ever came her way and how about that? And it wasn't the right time, or oh, you are away with the. Whenever her kids had a play, I mean, it's a whole thing.
Speaker 2:So she started to operate out of what she called revenge. Revenge, she didn't get mad, she got revenge. Like she started working in a way to just show them, but not only show them, because it wasn't only about them. She was doing it for herself, to really demonstrate to herself that she had earned the things, that she was raising her hand for it, that she was ready for it, that she had the idea that she could do it well. And she operated out of revenge and got a whole lot of stuff done and made a whole lot of impact and then was scooped up by a different law firm to do incredible work because she just started, her pissed off was getting even.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it, that's amazing. Yeah, I mean, I think it's another thing from a social conditioning standpoint. We, as women, are taught not to be angry and we don't often know how to leverage or express our anger. And I am, if you're into Enneagrams, I'm an Enneagram type nine, so don't really do well with conflict and anger, but I have definitely learned that it can be a tremendous motivator, especially when there's some sense of justice involved.
Speaker 2:Thank, you Sure sure.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I love that story. I'm kind of curious on that note too what are some common challenges that women and family leaders face in their leadership journeys and how can they start to overcome them? Because the one you just explained sort of touched a little bit on motherhood, so I want to call it one of the obvious ones mom guilt. How many women have stood up at events or in one-on-ones with me and have said I just don't feel like I can be ambitious and be a good mom? What are some of those and then other roadblocks?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the evil trifecta that I come into contact with most often are imposter syndrome, perfectionism. I think it's where some of the mom guilt comes in. If I can't do everything and I can't do everything, well then what am I doing? Have I failed? And burnout? Yeah, and we've talked a little bit about burnout a while back right here in terms of sticking around in something for too long. But those are the three right. And so, when we think about how to overcome imposter syndrome, if I had the silver bullet to this, I would be a gajillionaire.
Speaker 1:Here's what.
Speaker 2:I have seen that works right, because you might see places, you could read a bunch of articles. It's like, first of all, let's stop calling it imposter syndrome, which I'm there for. But also it's like find your community. And, yes, find your community. But I also think that, because we know we are preconditioned to do a little bit of catastrophizing and because we are preconditioned to self-doubt in those moments when something incredible is coming our way, imposter syndrome happens when you are pushing against your comfort zone, when you are ready to grow, and then your brain and your heart go up, up, up, up, up. No, no, no, it's going to be hard, it's going to be scary. People aren't going to judge us. I don't think we can do it, so we're not going to do it.
Speaker 2:I invite you, in moments when you feel strong, when you are feeling like you are firing on all cylinders and the day is shining and nothing can get you down, to spend a couple of moments reflecting on that big feeling and why you are feeling like you are untouchable and spend a couple of minutes thinking about the opportunities or the challenges that might present themselves to you in the next month, or three months or six months or however far you want to go. So that way, when you are feeling strong, you can mentally prepare for them. So in those moments when you are feeling a little less than strong past, you has done the hard work to prep you for being ready for that moment. So I'm not saying wallow, I'm not suggesting that you doomsday scenario prep for your life, but give yourself the gift, when you are feeling strong, of preparing to take care of yourself when you are not going to feel that strong. That's what I would say about imposter phenomenon.
Speaker 1:And I think something there really quickly before you move on to the intersectionism and burnout with imposter syndrome too. I've always taken it oddly as a good sign, and you started to touch on that. I really just try to accept and allow the moment, but not let it slow me down and stop me, because really, to me, imposter syndrome is just all the bullshit the rest of the world has fed you that tells you not to be here.
Speaker 1:You don't deserve it, this isn't the space for you and that pushing up against something that means you are actually, like you said, breaking out of your comfort zone in order to achieve any kind of growth or satisfaction or a sense of purpose, or to be burnout, you need to be in that space more often, and sometimes that means being a little uncomfortable, and I think there's also nothing wrong with a little healthy dose of a lack of ego, because I think sometimes too, if we have no imposter syndrome, you sound like an asshole to me. I would take you to the next end on ourselves just a little bit. But I also encourage women and people of color, especially anybody who's marginalized, to kind of step into and hold space for that feeling and know that it's not you. It's literally all the messages you've received throughout your entire existence telling you that you're not supposed to be here and, like you said, get mad and get revenge on that.
Speaker 1:Like for it anyways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you were like. I call it my imposter inner voice. Right, if my imposter inner voice starts to like push play on my butt? What if mix tape that's going to keep me back in my squishy, comfortable place? It means I'm on the right track. It means something great is on the other side of that feeling. I just need to push a little harder into it.
Speaker 2:I just need to lean a little bit more and I think perfectionism really sort of fuels that right, this idea like if I can't do it right, if I can't be great right out of the gate, then I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 2:I don't know why fail has become a bad four letter word, but I think that we have lost track, particularly women in leadership roles and particularly women in male dominated arenas. There is this external pressure that if you were going to do something, you better do it right and it better be perfect and it better be polished, because if it's wrong you're going to set all of us back right or like somebody's going to judge you for it and because of that we've lost a lot of sense of exploration and play and like failing fast and picking up and rebounding and learning from what didn't go well and then like trying again. So I think if we want to and I am an overcome, I am on a journey to overcome perfectionism right, like this is a lifelong study than I am on I think that if we want to overcome perfectionism, we have to let ourselves off the hook and we need and this is where this idea of like spirit of adventure comes back in right, you need to get lost in order to figure out the way through. I love it.
Speaker 1:I would also recommend self compassion. I was actually listening to podcast last night on my long drive home with my spare tire as we were talking, before we started recording. I listened to a podcast with Kristen Neff. I don't know if many of you have listened to her, but she's a great psychologist and I think she's a professor I can't think of what university right now but she talked a lot about self compassion in everything that she writes and I think that is something that we.
Speaker 1:Nobody is harder on us than us, and really learning to kind of work on that self critic will help with imposter syndrome and with perfectionism and it starts with self compassion and the fact that we probably speak to ourselves in ways we would never speak to even our worst enemies. Yeah, being aware of what kind of conversations we're having with ourselves on a day to day basis, it's such an important thing, self compassion. I'm trying to figure out ways to like even bake it into, like my morning practice and then right before bed, because I tell you, I wake up and I roll out of bed and the thoughts start right away.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, no, there's an exercise that I do with my clients where I invite you to like get a notebook or have a Google Doc or whatever open on your computer and whatever you say to yourself during the day, write it down and then at the end of the day and it's very easily, very easy journaling, because at the end of the day you can look back and you can see like, oh, I wasn't particularly nice to my friend Kerry today. Yeah, or oh, kerry was really rad today. And look at her like she's popping herself up. She's saying keep going. I mean, I even I even noticed this. I am, I begrudgingly run for exercise. Yeah, and there are definitely moments where I'm like keep going, you can do this up the hill, you know. It's just like a moment how you would pep talk yourself in those low moments, like keep track of them for a day, see how much you are celebrating yourself versus how much you are holding yourself down Right, and then try again tomorrow.
Speaker 1:I love it. That's a great practice. I'm gonna have to take that up and see what. See what comes of it. Alright, I got a few more questions, okay, so have time at the end for questions from our live listening audience. If that's awesome, have questions. The time has flown. I just looked at my holy crap. How is it 10 till already? Yeah, yeah, yeah, alright, but I have a couple of last questions for you and then I'll keep an eye on the chat in case anybody happens to drop a question In the meantime. There's plenty of links up above in the chat earlier and they'll also be included in the show notes on how you can connect with Kerry.
Speaker 1:Follow your social, all that good stuff. Alright, I have to be choosy about my last few questions because we're close to time. Oh, my goodness, let's talk about this change management. Oh yeah, you know, for those who are maybe in that space having to go through it or experiencing it or facilitating it, it's pretty daunting. Could you share some strategies or insights for navigating personal or organizational transformations effectively?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. I, we, you were absolutely right. We have been preconditioned to believe that change has to be hard and change has to be scary, and I reject that, and maybe that's a little bit maverick of me. That helps me sort of go through the day and be able to influence change before it disrupts me, and so I would love for everybody to sort of embrace that mindset. You have the ability to disrupt change before it disrupts or overturns your life, and so there are like six things that when I'm either working in consultation with a company doing change management, or like something is happening in my world and I need to adapt to it, just on a personal level, there are six things that I sort of go through, and the first one is really understanding what the change is, and is it bringing some challenge that I need to overcome or some opportunity that I need to be prepared for, open to?
Speaker 2:Because, change isn't always bad. It really isn't always bad, in fact. Some, some changes are beautiful and magical, and so we just think about them in different ways. So, first and foremost is really being spending some time understanding what the change is at its core. The second thing would be like what evidence do we have, what proof do we have, that there is a problem that needs to be solved, or that there is something else that we need to be poised for right, that is going to be that spark of inspiration or ignition for something good to come? What evidence or proof that we have that this change that we're dreading is actually going to happen, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that requires, don't we data? Yeah, is there data to support that, right? The third item on that list is really like, what do we expect to happen because of this change? What are the outcomes? What are the impacts? Who's going to be impacted? When are they going to impact it?
Speaker 2:Is it like we have to physically move people to a new building? Is it introducing a new system? Is it just I am getting a new washing machine and I'm not going to know how to use it? Is it that our? What is? Another example? Oh, we're backyard beekeepers.
Speaker 2:So is it that like our bee colony grew so quickly that now we need to split the hive and like that's wonderful, but so like that's a different stress, but it's wonderful? So what are the outcomes, what are the impacts and when might they arrive? And when we're talking about when might we are, when might they arrive? We also want to keep in mind, like timing. Timing is number four, right? So when is this change going to happen? Why is this change happening then? Does it have to happen? Then? Does it all have to happen? Then, sort of like wrap our hands around the timing of it and the timeline of it.
Speaker 2:The next item is what are other things that are like relying on that change right? Is there something else that we've done that is now brought about this change, or is this change going to do something else? I don't know. And then, finally, support you are never in it alone. Even if you feel like you were in it alone, you do not have to be lonely. So who can you collaborate with? Who can you delegate to? Who can you talk about this with? Where can you find support or therapy or consult or counseling when you're going through this? Those are the six items that really help me sort of position and respond to, instead of react to change and then position myself and my plan so that way I am driving the change, the changes in driving me.
Speaker 1:I love it. That's fantastic. And you said you have something like. You have that kind of outlanded.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I have like a little cheat sheet. You want it, I'll send it to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, sure, with everybody Share it with the group, because I think it's such a it's a fan. I love frameworks, I love things where you can kind of sit, like you said, and really I like to compartmentalize, especially when there's a lot happening and changing. I do get very excited and happy about the possibility of change. I'm also an infinite optimist and hopeful, so but at the same time, it doesn't make it less necessarily overwhelming. It's just like you said. It's, in a different way, very jealous that you're beekeepers, by the way. I've always wanted to do that, but in that instance, I think it's just really great to have something to sit down with, either for yourself or even to share with others to help work through that process. And, like you said earlier too, you know, great leaders bring people along with them, and I think that's something we forget about as leaders as we're making changes, like we're so caught up in the mess and what has to be done in our own heads that we don't often think, oh, I need to stop and articulate this what's happening, why it's happening, how it's happening, what's the timeline to everyone else. Yeah, yeah, it sounds like a great tool. I appreciate you sharing that.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm going to ask one more question and then we're going to wrap it up, although I feel like we can keep going. Okay, oh, which one do I want to ask? I'm going to ask the kind of most interesting one, in my opinion, of the few that I have left, because I think it might be helpful for our listeners. I don't think we did not get any questions. I didn't see, but some nice comments. So let's see True crime and rescue dogs sound like obviously, am I relate to those deeply. Yeah, do these passions tie into your coaching approach? Because I think that's an important thing, as we're talking about living authentically and owning who you are. How do we begin to bring that into our professional selves?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So those are two wildly different things that don't seem like they really align with the coaching field, but they do in fact, because the thing that I am most interested in in true crime is a twofold. The first one is like what makes people tick? What motivates people to do the things that they do? Is it really something that is sort of like at their core, something that makes them make choices that have very negative impacts on people around them and have horrifying consequences? Or what makes somebody snap? I'm really interested in those motivators, but at the same time and more importantly, I'm interested in the survivors and how you move on after.
Speaker 2:How do you let an experience that extraordinary inform you but not define you? I think so often when we are going about our day to day, particularly if we are trying to establish ourselves as leaders in a different way, if we are feeling different, there's a sense of like. If I do this thing, then this is what I'm always going to have to do, as opposed to. This is the ignition point for some magical glitter bomb explosion. That's your legacy going forward. So what motivates you? How do you understand those motivators? How do you understand how to influence motivators and other people. And then how do you move on? How do you move beyond past experiences that have perhaps been hard and reclaim control of the good and the joy and the passion to move forward?
Speaker 2:In terms of rescue dogs, we most recently have found ourselves supporting rescues that have pitbull breed dogs and we have two pit mixes and they are their goofballs and they're lovely and they think that they're people and they are little glitter bombs. And pitbull breed dogs are often very misunderstood and people fear them or they're wary of them because we only hear the bad things about them and the folks that I often support are misfits. They are feared or people are made wary of them for whatever reasons, and these dogs rescue dogs in general they cannot help but be themselves and we love them and we take care of them and we support them and we nurture them to be their best selves. And that is where coaching really comes into play, right Supporting people to be their best, their truest, their most colorful self. So that's how those two things align back to coaching and love it.
Speaker 1:Well and that's such a good exercise for everyone who's listening like, take a moment this weekend and reflect on those things that are your passions and hobbies outside of the work that you do, and figure out how does it align to either the work that I'm currently doing or the kind of work that I actually want to be doing? Like, what's this tendency? Oh, I have this nurture tendency. I have this tendency to want to understand how people are motivated. I like to see people be their best selves. It's like oh, you sound like a coach. Yeah, you know so. I love this conversation. Carrie, thank you so much. I appreciate you being here and sharing your authentic self and everything that you've done to help empower other women to step into their own authentic power.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thanks for this opportunity and I would love to continue the conversation, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yes, let's keep in touch. All right, everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in. It's been a great conversation, as always, carrie, because way too fast. Until then, keep asking, keep giving and keep growing friends. See you next week. Bye.
