Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share
Digital is a demanding and competitive field. And women are still grossly underpaid & underrepresented. But we are not powerless; we have each other. Together Digital Power Lounge is your place to hear authentic conversations from women in digital who have power to share. Listen and learn from our amazing guests along with host Amy Vaughan, Owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital. Together Digital is a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital who choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. To learn more, visit www.togetherindigital.com.
Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share
Demystifying Product Management | Ksenia Boyer | S3 E12
In this conversation we will challenge the myth of a singular path, debunking stereotypes perpetuated by industry giants. Our seasoned speaker, drawing from 18 years in diverse corporate roles, shares insights on navigating the complexities of product management. Learn how to advocate for crucial resources, mentorship, and training, ensuring success in this pivotal role. Join us for an exploration into the nuanced transition from individual contributor to influential manager, with a focus on digital etiquette and transformative leadership practices.
Don't miss this opportunity to glean wisdom from our expert speaker's rich and varied experiences.
ABOUT KSENIA:
After 18 years in the corporate world, wearing various hats from project management, to clinical research associate, patient advocate engagement manager, product manager, people manager - I'm now on a wonderful and at times scary and lonely journey of embarking on my own. I am presently focused on providing coaching, facilitation and product management "priming" - helping teams and companies create the rigor and environment to truly benefit from a product management mindset. I also have a passion for helping individuals step into product management with open eyes, and from there how best to pivot into a management position - from doer to influencer. Not a given, and not something most companies manage to support very well. Finally, I love speaking with leaders and teaching them the importance of intentionally focusing on digital etiquette and training on tools for their employees. It's fascinating to see how teams and organizations transform (for the better!) when this is at the heart of company values.
Takeaways:
- Customer-Centric Leadership and Authenticity
- Women in Digital and Product Management Challenges
- Prioritization Strategies and Reflections
- Transitioning to Product Management: Advice and Strategies
- AI vs. Human Empathy in Product Management
- Role Confusion in Companies and Tactical Leadership
- Workplace Empowerment and Inclusivity
Chapters
00:00 - Introduction
Embracing Rest, Shifting to Healthcare Innovation
00:17 - Exploring New Skills in Startup Environment
07:41 - Reflecting on Leadership, Allyship, and Technical Support
13:00 - Unlocking the Power of "Because" in Language
15:45 - Women's Impact in Technology Leadership, Nurturing Confidence
19:39 - Tech Interview Humility and Skill Balance
21:30 - Passion for Product Management in Varied Industries
25:32 - Delving into Product Management's Significance and Challenges
29:00 - LinkedIn Thought Leaders for Professional Growth
33:26 - Team Dynamics, Agile Development, and Vision Setting
34:30 - Key Factors in Design and Tool Selection
39:20 - Job Search Insights and Reflective Journey
43:31 - Cultivating Innovation in Product Management Roles
47:28 - Navigating Digital Etiquette in Communication Platforms
51:22 - Mentorship's Role in Strategic Refinement
53:02 - The Three C's: Collaborate, Communicate, Create Safe Spaces
55:50 - Prioritization Techniques for Effective Task Management
59:40 - Outro
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly power lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power and connections. You can join the movement at togetherindigitalcom. Today, we're going to help you all learn a little bit more about product management. This has been a pretty popular topic among some of our members as they kind of consider and look towards a career change or pivot, and I'm really excited to welcome a fellow Together Digital member from the West Coast.
Speaker 1:Please welcome Kasina Boyer. She has 18 years of diverse corporate experience spanning project management, clinical research, advocacy and product management. Kasina is now dedicated to coaching and facilitating teams, guiding them towards product management and product management. Kasina is now dedicated to coaching and facilitating teams, guiding them towards a product management mindset. She has a knack for getting folks unstuck. Her passion for nurturing future leaders and advocating for digital etiquette promises to inspire our listeners today. Kasina, thank you so much for being here with us today. I'm excited for this conversation.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. As I said before, I think this is an area that's growing and I think it has a lot of folks curious and it's, you know, a space that I think some people kind of get intimidated by. Right, Because it's there's not like a scripted or a set path and you're a big advocate for this idea of a non-traditional path. But before we kind of get into all of that, I'm curious for you to share with our listeners what inspired you to transition from these sort of various corporate roles into focusing on coaching and facilitating product management.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much. So I'll kind of go in reverse of essentially how we got here today, almost a year to the day actually, the decision was actually made for me in some ways. So, for better or worse, my entire division was made, was restructured which is a fancy corporate term for basically saying laid off so our whole group was laid off. It was a tough time, as you can imagine, rather emotional. I'm sure many can relate to that, especially over the last seemingly 18 months or so. But I really chose to take that time and now I wasn't in a position of privilege to be able to do so. I have a husband who's working.
Speaker 2:So, unlike many of my peers, I wanted to pause. I wanted to reflect and do a little bit of introspection on actually my values. I felt like I had lost sight of where I and how I spend my energy and, in turn, was actually suffering quite a bit of burnout because of my own choices, not so much the company but how I was operating and how I was leaning into, almost like this fuel of adrenaline versus authentic rest. So I focused on restoration and by happenstance, was introduced to a wonderful startup focused on a disease diagnostics technology in very, very early stage development and I was like why don't I try going independent and working with them to mature this idea into an actual product? So that was my really first foray around an area I'm really passionate about when it comes to healthcare and really progressing innovation in that space. So it felt like it was, you know, kind of two birds with one stone, flexing the product skills and some of the executive coaching I've been wanting to really explore and was able to do all of those things kind of wrapped in one in a very new space for myself when it came to working in startup.
Speaker 2:But leading up to that, I think I reflected on my, you know, building out my resume, looking at essentially my background, just to be able to share with others, like why you would want to work with me right, like where's the credibility. I realized that thread of being customer focused, thinking about effective prioritization and leaning into efforts that matter was threaded throughout pretty much my entire career, beginning with the end of mine. You may have heard that from Amazon's adage like who are you actually serving? Who is this for? What solution are you building? But really, how is it going to be utilized?
Speaker 2:Whether it was clinical research and thinking about patients and ultimately being able to navigate a complex protocol, or you know what is their expected experience to working with patient advocates and understanding their stories and the importance of understanding that power of storytelling, to then moving into technology and having your end users be your customers, even if they're internal. That was all there, so it was really fun that I was able to wrap that up and so, while the choice was kind of made for me to pursue, I'm really grateful that that transpired, because I don't know that I would have taken that leap myself, to be honest, or at least not for a while.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting how you know, a lot of times, things it's a matter of perspective, right? Is it something that's happening to you? Is it something that's happening for you? And I think your response granted.
Speaker 1:Like you said, you had the opportunity and a position of privilege to be able to take that pause, but that pause could be a matter of hours, days, weeks months but taking any sort of pause at all to kind of collect your thoughts and really kind of look at the span of your experience and really say collectively, where are my strengths, where are my passions, where are my interests, where are my talents, and then collectively like where are my strengths and how do I serve others best?
Speaker 1:I think is really great. Because I think something else that you said that really resonated there and I think well with a lot of our listeners is, you know, resonated there and I think well with a lot of our listeners is, you know, um, that whole idea of burnout, yeah you know, and sort of just kind of feeling and and running off of that adrenaline of just constantly going, and there's absolutely nothing like having that proverbial rug pulled out from underneath you, such as getting laid off to sort of kind of snap you out of it and I can't tell you how many times I've had conversations like these and you guys can go back and listen to many past episodes and how many women have sort of shared that their journey really began when those pivotal moments happened.
Speaker 1:So for those of you who are kind of in those difficult and challenging situations. I just want you to know it feels really hard right now, but this could be that moment that you get the chance to get back up on your feet and start something really new and something really different. Cohatch is a new kind of shared work, social and family space built on community. Members get access to workspace amenities like rock walls and sports simulators and more to live a fully integrated life that balances work, family, well-being, community and giving back. Cohatch has 31 locations open or under construction nationwide throughout Ohio, indiana, florida, pennsylvania, north Carolina, georgia and Tennessee. Visit wwwcohatchcom for more information.
Speaker 1:Sina, I would love for you to discuss with us a particularly challenging project or a situation that you faced during your corporate career that maybe, when you were doing some of this reflection that you know, helped you understand that. How you approached it, like what were some of the lessons that you learned and how did that help shape how you approach leadership and management? Like, as you were taking this time to kind of reflect and look back, was there something that stood out to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and especially if I focus on that last piece, like how did, like what was the impact right and what was I able to carry forth into how I manage teams and, hopefully, how I came across as a leader. And so, while I could spend time thinking about the rather personally challenging projects that really made me focus on my time management, now, after the fact, I would have done things very differently, but one in particular, or I guess one example in particular, and then maybe 1A, is thinking about the importance of being an ally and the importance of being really an authentic ally and taking the chance to speak on someone else's behalf and how I was in that position of receiving someone who was actually looking for me and then how I translated that into my own leadership is something that will stick with me, hopefully for the rest of my life. So not to go into the full specifics of the project, but essentially I found myself in a situation where I was representing the technical side of the house. I was supporting Expedia Group IT department from product management lens. So my users, my customers, were employees and we were trying to solve for their needs when it came to support and working across what we called a cross-functional so basically many departments led type of effort, which can get muddy representation ownership can get really muddy, and so we were trying to pull this effort together. It turned into a massive program.
Speaker 2:I found myself in a situation of disagree but commit, commit. I don't know if you've heard that adage from amazon, I think so essentially, I vocalized concern around how we were approaching this. It became I'm going to try to limit the corporate buzzwords, but maybe we can make a bingo card afterward, but it's like a shortcut. But boiling the ocean, kind of looking at everything rather than focusing on something more specific and niche and then iterating from there, was the approach presented, and I spoke up and said this is not going to work. We're going to fail because it's not. We don't have a clear mission and vision. You know, I'm only representing essentially a slice of this, but also representing the voice of our users. So please listen, it didn't really amount to that, unfortunately. So I had to commit. Right, that was the other part of it is. I shared my disagreement. But okay, let me see how I can help make this successful.
Speaker 2:And so, after months of trying to beat this thing into submission, we were not reaching a point of progress, and so I chose to bring the group together, really the leaders that were representing this effort. I brought in my technical partner, who represented essentially the development engineering side of the house and then worked with the program side of the house on this cross-functional team, and we just looked at each other and said, okay, something's got to give, it's becoming toxic, this is not productive. People are starting to complain about one another, like we have to move forward in a different way, and so I outlined an approach and a tactical shift, essentially like we need to pivot. There are some things that we can really look at and backtrack a little bit, like are we actually all aligned on what we're pursuing and what those end state goals look like? You know, kind of going back to basics, which can be very annoying, right to someone who says we've already gone so far, like why did we go back? But we were getting. You know, there's some nodding in the room. There's a small group of us I think it was like five of us one person on on Zoom and made some good traction, had some good points made, and then my tech partner essentially echoed some of what I said and added to it. It's like and we can do this tactically, and here's the timeline that I think we can deliver really. So I was representing why it was important, what was the value. You know what can we do.
Speaker 2:He was representing the how of really implementing these things and I experienced a situation of he Pete I don't know if you've heard that, the hashtag he Pete kind of thing like repeat, where the other director we'll call him john protect his privacy because we have a good relationship, all of a sudden repeat. And it's like you know, tom, my, my tech partner and ally goes. I really like what you said there and I really love that you pulled this together as this effort. You know, thank you for bringing us to attention. Meanwhile, I was the one who did that and in the moment I'm like oh, that sucks right, like kind of taking the credit, but I was like you know, the idea stuck. I planted the seeds, that's good enough. I'm not going to go back and try to bring attention to this. It's. It felt petty to be like that was actually my idea and, much to my delight, tom goes. Hang on, I just told you about the tactical delivery. This is her doing. She brought everything together and I brought it up to him years later.
Speaker 2:This is years ago and clearly it's still such an impactful moment, uh-huh, and I said I told him about this like, oh, I didn't remember that.
Speaker 2:I'm like it's one I'll never forget because it was so nonchalant, it was so organic and natural for him to just to lead with that and it changed like and it was a bit of a checkpoint, you know, for John it was like, oh, I'm sorry, and that was it, like he was more aware, we were aware, and it was awesome.
Speaker 2:And that moment really taught me the importance of taking stock of a conversation, of a room, especially if you're in a position of leadership and influence, to note if someone is being spoken over, if you feel like their idea is being kind of mixed in with others and you have credit where credit's due, so that people feel empowered and actually comfortable to speak up. Otherwise they never will. And that's something my peers and I really carried forth, like in our management meetings and really trying to, and we encourage people to turn on their cameras because we had a globally distributed team. We're mostly virtual, like it's not to force you to show up, it's so that I can see that you are in a position to participate and be engaged and that if you're being overlooked, that was a really cool moment.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly. Well, and I think, sharing that why, you know, or one of the most convincing words in the english language is because the word because holds so much power, because it tells you the why, not just the how, um, and I love that the he pete I've heard a similar phrase and I love giving language to these things because I think it helps those who are listening, whether they're allies or those who want to speak up on behalf of others, which I I mean is allyship, is a pro-appropriation right. When somebody speaks an idea it's a guy and then another guy's like oh yeah, great idea, but it was, you know, really just an iteration of an idea that a woman just said. But I do think that one of the best ways to kind of cut that off at the head is to really have another man within the room, an ally, speak up and say, actually, let's redirect that to the person who actually spoke up and gave that idea to begin with. And it is, it's small, but it's so significant for that person that you did it and again, it's such a great.
Speaker 1:I love that story. It stuck with you throughout the years and, yeah, I've had a. I had a leader, a CFO of a company once and I honestly I feel bad because I don't remember the moment either there was like mass layoffs at our company and I could tell we were all stressed out. But it was a very hard day for him too and he didn't want to be seen crying because he's like this you know big CFO dude, but like I could tell he had been and so like I think I guess I stopped him in the hallway and I was like I just was like are you, are you okay? And he remembered that and has remembered that for the longest time. And he told me one day at lunch he was like I have never forgotten that moment because he says that was like one of the hardest days of my life professionally, personally.
Speaker 1:He's like I never wanted to live a day like that again. And he said I just felt like another crap. And he said it was such a small moment and I would never I feel so bad for like not remembering the exact moment. I'm like I think I'm sure he remembers like checking in, but like I don't remember the exact moment. But it does, it does make a difference and it sticks with people, um, whether you realize it or or not. So good for him, but yeah, I love that. That's a great example and and good for you, I think too.
Speaker 1:I think what this is showing is you you know that, I think ability. I think that women in particular have this ability to sort of have that that broad kind of 30,000 foot view, but also that empathetic kind of granular view of what's happening with the team and that ability to see when things are turning toxic right, because you're not just focusing on, like, the output and the performance. It's also like where are people at right now? How are they showing up, how are they feeling? Like, what's the vibe of the room?
Speaker 1:when people walk in. You know, and I don't know that you know in a general like overly masculine environment, that that's, that's always something that we're paying attention to.
Speaker 2:Now I will add my leadership team and my peers were actually predominantly women. It was really cool how we were able to carve out this team in a traditionally really male-dominated field, especially when it came to technology and IT, and we almost developed the inverse of that, where we were the most vocal in the room. Now we were also more senior and I noticed that we were. We tended to go down topics that made some of our male team members a little bit more uncomfortable or not as confident to speak up, and it wasn't necessarily anything female, but it was just like obsession over certain music genres or you know how we spend our time, necessarily. And and then we kept kind of, you know, passing the mic to each other, and so it was eventually like are we engaging everyone? Let's like okay, strong women, hush for a bit let's let everybody speak up.
Speaker 2:So it was almost like, well, wait, hang on, we're not doing any justice, for you know, we're not living those values ourselves, like yeah, there was a bit of a, and we would check one another and say on slack like, hey, give you know pause, you know pause.
Speaker 1:It's a balance. Yeah, it's a balance. It's an absolute balance, but I think that that's great. I love that, all right. So, as I mentioned earlier, you know you're passionate about helping others transition into product management and again, this conversation was kind of spurred because we have a lot of folks who are interested in transitioning into product management. What insights or advice do you?
Speaker 2:So I think when you and I first set this conversation up, it was for the fall, and honestly, now to then, I think myself changing mentally and the industry actually in many ways which wasn't that long ago, right, but things are changing so fast I think I would have given a very different answer than today, actually, that there is no direct path. My career is very much a jungle gym and I think just about every product manager you meet outside of maybe those in their early careers who are coming out of like an MBA program and tend to be recruited and kind of pulled into those job paths out of the gates. You tend to lean into projects and have a certain skill set that lends itself there organically and someone takes notice. So that could be a path. It is a lucrative career, I think. The salaries are published, you know, hopefully now pretty transparently, and that does draw people in because you know you obviously want to be compensated well for what you do, and so the paths are not direct, for better or worse, right. So unfortunately there's not a preset curriculum and experience that says, you know, should you meet all these things, you will ultimately land in this kind of role, and I say for better, because then you can make it your own, you can carve out the kind of work you want to do, the type of product you want to support and the kind of company you want to work for. All should be part of your evaluation and then being honest with your own skill set. So you know, we all hear about imposter syndrome and kind of be it till you become it, models and so forth. While that's great, if you don't have certain skill set and experience and knowledge, especially around language and vernacular, you will not be successful. So it's knowing the difference between do I actually have the skills and knowledge or do I need to study up a bit more, get a bit more exposure, hopefully in your current job that can lend itself to that thinking and then eventually transition. And then, of course, if you do have the skills, own it, you know, go after it on your space.
Speaker 2:What I learned as a humbling experience so I've interviewed with companies like Google and to get into something like Google, don't ever bother applying directly. You will never be heard. I think you've probably heard that from a multitude of especially bigger companies. You need to have somebody that can give you a referral, that can help expedite that because you will be lost in the sea of resumes. I mean, I think, the role that I was referred to. I heard the number and I still have a tough time believing it. Something like a hundred thousand applicants like seems insane. But okay, fine, so try not to make that, you know, intimidating.
Speaker 2:Fine, went into it thinking I got this. You know, I've been doing this for a couple of years. I feel like I have the right skillset and aptitude, passion, right. I've been studying up on these kinds of principles and frameworks and so forth and I get into the interview and got humbled. Real quick, real quick on. Help me understand how Instagram works and how you're able to get the algorithm like so techie and down into the weeds immediately. And this is the first part of the loop. I'm like, oh no, I know this to a point and I know enough of this to work effectively with a technical partner and be able to challenge the logic and the decision-making prioritization, but to actually sit down and code the logic and sequence myself and understand how that's happening.
Speaker 2:You know, with hands-on experience as a developer and engineer, that was not me, and so there was a little bit of frustration where I felt like the recruiter didn't really articulate that well enough of saying like for a technical role in a lot of these companies essentially the fang right facebook, amazon, apple, netflix, google you really do need to have that background, whether it's self-taught or professionally, in order to get past that bar, and a lot of times it's frustrating is you probably won't even be doing that kind of work when you get into it. But what they're trying to eliminate is that imposter versus imposter syndrome, because you will be expected to get into the nitty gritty from time to time and understand some of the complexity at a much higher level. So that's the one thing I'd say is, if you're really looking at product and you don't have that kind of formal technical background, I wouldn't set your sights first at those big companies, never mind the fact that you will own a tiny piece of whatever process or the foundational infrastructure. Like you will only be responsible for this piece of the checkout experience or this with SEO. That's it. This is your bubble that you live in, yeah Right, and then working with teams to develop. So if you're really passionate about understanding the full lifecycle and how that impacts users and bringing in that feedback and so forth, I say go after smaller companies.
Speaker 2:Product management is really becoming a lot more ubiquitous across a multitude of industries. Healthcare, in particular, I think, is really starting to have a lot more of that discipline folded in and really exploring what it means to be agile. I think that's a lot of times at the core of where a product manager can come in and help a team shine is really working in what's called sprints and agile and iterative development. Right, not having that longstanding waterfall type of project. Obviously it doesn't apply everywhere, but the flip side of those industries and companies that are a bit naive to setting up a product team or a product lens, thinking about the end in mind, your end users and customers, is that you probably won't have as robust of a support system. Right? You probably. Maybe you're the first product manager. I was the first product manager within Expedia Group IT and I think I had naivety at my back because in hindsight it's like what were you thinking? Like this is a really hard sell actually to the team you're coming into, never mind the fact that I didn't have resources or a community at the ready to be able to bounce ideas off of. So there's going to be kind of two sides of every coin.
Speaker 2:When you look at these things and really evaluating within yourself at the start, in the beginning what are your values, where are your skills and strengths, what are the things you can learn on the job, and you feel like you're confident, comfortable enough to you know. Put together your list of literally google terms like is this industry specific? And I'm a little too insecure to ask in the room, and maybe rightfully so, or is this unique to the project? Um, but don't ever be afraid to ask. I've challenged and I'm okay to look the dumbest in the room, especially when it comes to acronyms, right, we all love acronyms and it's like really we need one more, but sometimes it's a shortcut, right, so everybody uses it, and that was always.
Speaker 2:My thing is can you help define that, just to understand it in this context? Right, cause it could mean completely something different if you're coming in from a different industry or even job and oftentimes people go. What does that mean? I just know it as the acronym. So just a little bit of food for thought when it comes to that.
Speaker 2:There are a ton of resources out there almost too much, actually when it comes to figuring out if you want to do this and how you want to do this. There's a lot of communities I'm part of Women in Product. They're wonderful in trying to support one another and sharing those learnings. And how do I do the following? I have this problem. There's product school, so there's the massive almost university type of communities forums that you can pay money you can learn. It kind of becomes a little bit more framework oriented, which I do.
Speaker 2:Caution people in getting obsessive with understanding all the frameworks If you don't like fundamentally understand why you're doing this. Um, I guess as a pseudo plug, I have two partners and I that are toying around and we're kind of in the product discovery phase, if you're familiar with the life cycle on creating actually a forum and a community we're calling a peer path academy trying to understand and how to provide a more tactical approach and pragmatic approach to learning product and like. If you think about like, how do we get here? It is a windy path and it is convoluted, but there are some things that are fundamentally like core to understanding it. So, if folks are interested in learning and providing some feedback, I'd love to chat with you about just your own experience, cause at this point we're very much in that. Like back, I'd love to chat with you about just your own experience, because at this point we're very much in that like, what does this look like? Stage, just kind of shaping it.
Speaker 2:Um, but there's a ton of coursera offerings. Google offers a bunch of courses that you can really get yourself to build your confidence. More than anything, it's build your confidence and understanding. Um, essentially, like where are my gaps and how do I study up quickly to just familiar, be familiar with code types, to know the difference between nodejs and python and java and c++? Like you don't need me necessarily to do it everywhere, but you should know if your dev is suggesting I want to do this versus that, to be able to challenge why. Why would we go down this path versus right, not so much how to do it I mean, this is exactly why we're having this conversation, because it is.
Speaker 1:it can be such a black hole, and I love that you guys are working and trying to solve that problem for some, because I think you know product management is going to continue to be a growing and critical career path and role. It is essential for all of the technology that is continuing to thrive and grow. So, yeah, I love that and I can only imagine the analysis, paralysis that sort of comes with it. Again, I think we were joking before we jumped on here about our Together Digital community and how you're such a great fit for it because we're all just such constant learners and how it can be. Sort of it's like a blessing and a curse all in the same. So if any of you want to reach out to or connect with Christina, you can through our Slack and nerd out some more and maybe kind of share some of those things and insights to help her start to shape the community and the support that they're going to be creating for those who want to start to kind of go down this path, Because I do.
Speaker 1:I agree you need to start to be able to define the areas and the spaces in which you do want to specialize, so that you do know again, sort of like, what are the rules, so that you can get in there, so that then you can break them and you know again. You're kind of working in the spaces and the places in which you have defined your strengths, your passions, your abilities, and then you aren't burning yourself out, chasing down the paths and the opportunities that maybe aren't right and aren't best for you, Because there are there's. I think there's. This is I think this is what excites me about this area of work as well is because there is lots of opportunity here for folks right because there is lots of opportunity here for folks, right?
Speaker 1:You know there's so many different areas and different types of products that you could be helping to build and own that are solving a lot of problems for people. So, yeah, yeah, lots of rife with opportunity. All right, let's see my next question that I've got for you. In your experience, what are some common misconceptions or stereotypes about product management that you frequently encounter, and how do you go about debunking them?
Speaker 2:So something I've learned, falling into this role because I really did I got pulled into it when I was blessed with a director that saw something in me that I didn't even know about and moving through working as a product manager and then a manager of a product and then eventually getting laid off and watching the industry from a very different perspective, is that product management is defined very differently depending on the industry, the organization and the type of company, like the size of the company, and so when I was actually tasked with recruiting my team so I was in a wonderful position opportunity, had the opportunity to build out a team during the recruitment cycles what I learned is that folks coming in from, say, microsoft, with a non-technical product type of background or role, were often actually more program manager-esque, if that makes sense. So they really weren't in the mix of building out a strategy as much or as often and we're really focused on more of implementation and in some ways it then became more of a product owner role. So you'll hear like product manager, project manager, program manager and then product owner manager, program manager and then product owner and, excuse me, there's a lot of thought leaders who are super frustrated by how this has evolved or devolved in certain ways, so I definitely recommend following leaders, thought leaders, on LinkedIn. You know Marty Kagan to Itmar Gilad, to Teresa Torres, kim Scott, like. There's a number of people I'm happy to share. I think the book list I gave you, kaylee, has a number of those folks listed, and so what they're really advocating for is keeping those concepts pure, because, at the end of the day, you're setting someone up for failure if your expectations are coming in right, as, oh, I'm going to be running a program and really helping implement the execution, versus, oh, I'm actually more earlier in that life cycle.
Speaker 2:I mentioned before of the product, of whether you're now doing research around your user base and their problem areas and things like that. Those are very two different skill sets. Right, you can build both absolutely, but you also should not be able to do both, because that's exactly when burnout happens is, if you are tasked with managing all aspects of that, you're not going to be able to do it. Well, you really need that durable team is something I think Marty Kagan coined and inspired is how do you empower people to have the right ownership of these things, of being a decision maker when it came to what? What are we solving for and why? Really, in my belief, is the product. Lens is. We can do a bunch of things.
Speaker 2:We can be a feature factor if you want and continuously roll things out, but if no one is using them and if they're not actually meeting the mark of solving for the problem, we failed and so you need to be able to distinguish that forethought and be able to look at a landscape, look, look at industry trends, usage trends and so forth which is typically a product lens and understanding how then that needs to be passed to someone who's really strong, equally strong, right there's not a hierarchy thing here to then execute and deliver on that vision. Both are needed and I think a lot of times those get conflated.
Speaker 1:Yep, I agree so hard with this because it's sad and it makes me frustrated that people lose their jobs, because of these misconceptions, I think that's what makes me angry is, like you said at the beginning, people get set up for failure because the people at the top that are leading organizations don't understand the nuance of the roles and the titles and the needs of the roles and the responsibilities and the needs of the people, the needs for specificity and those skill sets to be filled by the right people. That it does it ends up setting people up for failure. I think somebody I just noticed in the live chat with our live listening audience. Somebody said this is so insightful. I'm an associate product manager and I got thrown into my role with no background, so this is extremely helpful moving forward in my role. Thank you so much so I'm glad that you're finding this helpful.
Speaker 1:And then I was just on the call with a mentee of mine who lost a teammate because I think they were just kind of set up for the similar kind of situation where it was just there was no clear definition of their role, their responsibility, process, checks and balances and they kind of just were thrown under the bus and you know, and they didn't even have like a direct manager because didn't know where to place them, because there was like they're like where do we put them like where do they belong? Who do they belong to? You know? So, because it is sort of like a newer, um, sort of role responsibility. I think there's a lot of organizations that are still kind of figuring a lot of this out. Um, we did also get thank you, kaylee, by the way, for those who are live listening, and we'll include these links in the notes. We've got a great reading list that Cassina mentioned as well in the chat, so lots of great books. We love our book references, so thank you for that.
Speaker 1:Hilary had a quick question, so we're going to ask this one really quick, because I actually jotted Scrum down earlier too. I was going to start to get to it, but I didn't want to nerd out too hard. But since Hilary brought it up, have you or do you practice Scrum or Agile management and any recommendations along? Which is the best framework to?
Speaker 2:look into there. So I guess I'll end with the last part of that statement. There's no such thing as the best framework on its own. It's understanding the context right, and where are you trying to plug it in? And I think what everybody will probably start to pick up on, especially now that I've called it out in the courses and things that you may take, almost every time the instructor will stop with that depends.
Speaker 2:It depends on who you're solving for, what is the nature of your team, and it's really frustrating because you're like great, give me those tactics and give me that sense. But really what it comes down to is understanding exactly the environment. How is your team structured? So, for example, the startup I'm working with right now and helping support move and I help them move into an agile and scrum type of approach. They're developing a physical device can only be so iterative when it comes to lead times of ordering our head circuit boards and certain hardware and firmware right, whereas other things where you can look at, okay, we're also creating a ui user interface that complements with the, the device, and there we can be a bit more iterative and a little bit squishier when it comes to long-term vision, essentially specific tactics rather, and so with agile and scrum, know, I think there's a place for Waterfall, especially when it's like a physical build out. So if you're building an actual office building, for example, there's going to be things that require you to think long term to establish that you really can't iterate on, and so Agile and that kind of development is really key for areas that can be very dynamic.
Speaker 2:So industries that are really highly dynamic, that are dependent on really dependent on user feedback too, where you have the ability to have that flux and implement something different. But if you're building an office and someone says, hey, actually we want 16 floors now you're going to be like no way, you're going to have to move right. That's not reasonable in that context. So for frameworks and actually implementing things that work well, I mean, there's thousands out there, unfortunately, or fortunately. So it's also looking at who are you solving, who are my people? Who are the people that are building this? What is their skill set, what is their familiarity with?
Speaker 2:When it comes to the degree of maturity and agile development, if you're just starting out, keep it simple, thinking about a product canvas, for example, and really laying it out. And if you use tools like Miro, there's an amazing Miroverse they call it with templates out the wazoo. There's people on LinkedIn that post them all the time, but really it's thinking about what are you solving for, why? Who's consuming this information? Thinking about the people and then leaning into okay, I have a shortcut.
Speaker 2:Templates or shortcuts, frameworks they're really just shortcuts to get to implementation and a way to be able to create cohesive and collective language. That's what it is at the end of the day is. Are we all on the same page and aligned with understanding how to use this material? Really, because I think people get so obsessive with some frameworks and you get to it and it's beautiful, and then we're like I don't know what to do with this and when and why. Right, so don't start with the frameworks, but start with your problem statement who are you solving for? And then go out and try to find the resources that should give you guidance on how to use them appropriately.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. Put up my little praise hands for that.
Speaker 1:It takes me back to a couple episodes ago, when I spoke with Katie Robert of Trust Insights and we were talking a lot about when, how AI might not always be the answer. We love it because it's the shiny object, but AI might not always be the answer to everything that you need, because it's that whole shiny object syndrome of we get so obsessed with the solution. Yeah, scrum's cool, agile's great, but is it always the answer? It depends on what you're building. It depends on the team, the structure, the support you have, the timeline. There's just so many things and I just loved all of those examples that you gave. I think they're really good, solid examples of why you should really take into consideration what it is that you're building, what the problem you're trying to solve is, versus focusing so hard on the solution. Think about the problem first, then think about what's the best solution is, versus kind of trying to spit the square peg in the round hole. Great question, thank you so much thank you.
Speaker 2:Something inspired when it comes to ai. I actually heard during a product networking meeting that someone was coming up with a product I think it's called a chameleon or something like that to basically replace product managers, to replace the thinking power and the strategy through an AI engine. Now, I love AI, I love chat, gpt. I feel like it gets you past that blank page and gets you to something a little bit there to work with. Sure, the idea of replacing people with these skill sets and be able to see, to have that we used to call it eagle and mouse vision. We're able to look up and see the world in front of you Right, or look down and actually see what's my next step. They can't do that, no.
Speaker 2:I cannot do that no no, it doesn't have the empathy and the intuition that we do that we talked about earlier, right.
Speaker 1:I was like I can't read the room and I can't read the room and tell me if the team, like it, could tell me, like maybe, the output it could read the output of productivity to some degree, but it can't tell me if the team is coming in and feeling completely deflated and confused.
Speaker 2:Right, right it'll never tell you the why. It won't not exactly exactly.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, we're getting such good engagement from our live listening audience. Thank you all so much for like jumping in and chiming in and wendy was, um, it was kind of uh, a feeling, the that whole frustration of job seeking and this whole kind of conflation of product program and project management roles and how people are just kind of blending them together. It is a frustration. I will ask you just to kind of, you know, hop on on Wendy's bandwagon here To you. Would you see that as a little bit of a red flag when you walk into a company and they're doing hiring and they're kind of kind of conflating all these roles together?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, and it really depends on your tolerance for teaching them right.
Speaker 2:So if you're coming into a smaller company or where product management is a bit novel, it's an opportunity. You can help shape it. If it's a company that's more mature and they've operated this way, then you have a decision to make of whether or not, mentally, you're actually saying I'm switching to program management. You can call it product all you want, but I'm going to make that translation and understanding fundamentally, what are you looking to deliver end to end? But if there's not this acknowledgement in some regards and that's a that's really challenging right in the interview to be like do you actually mean the following? And I've done that like this doesn't make sense to me. My expectation would be x, but you're telling me y. Um, help me understand. And so I would say you will have a really tough time trying to translate, kind of all your learnings into what they're looking for. Um. So absolutely advocate for interview the team and the people as well you know that are interviewing you on whether or not there's that clear alignment. Um, during my last year even though I I am independent and pursuing this effort I was also interviewing with a few companies, in part for market research.
Speaker 2:Actually, I don't know if you say that loud, but I want to see what our company is looking for and what kind of questions and what kind of environment are they describing, and one company I interviewed with that seemed wonderful. It was a really interesting and smart thing. So the company that's basically doing internet of things and bringing together this infrastructure for you know, your google home, to talk to your doorbell and things like that, and we get through it and they're like well, do you have specific internet of things experience?
Speaker 1:is there such a? Thing?
Speaker 2:right, I'm like, it's like coming out of college, but we want you to have 15 years experience and I'm like right and they're like we love you, we love the approach and things like that and whatever and I wasn't actually in.
Speaker 2:In all honesty, I wasn't leaning into a role in earnest. I probably shouldn't have been interviewing that far. I probably should have backed out, yeah, earlier. But I wanted to see and I was really curious about what could be. And when we got to that point I'm like thanks for no, thanks, bye, and you're like with that question, I'm out, that's.
Speaker 2:The other question is, um, because there are, unfortunately. I think one of the things you probably will lead into is how competitive is this place? There's tens of thousands of people that are looking for work right now within product program and project management, and that's the unfortunate truth. Yeah and so, but equally, there's thousands of jobs out there, and I think it's really the art of finding that good mesh and matchup of you know both skill set and values, and so it's really taking into account that if you get a rejection and a no, it's really taking into account that if you get a rejection and a no, it's probably because they're literally looking for a very specific human being, not even transferable skills, but have you done this exact thing in this capacity, right? Which almost seems like, unless I actually worked with this company before, the answer is probably gonna be no, right, and so I don't take that as discouragement, but take that as they have somebody very specific in mind. If that's not you, it's totally okay, and it's probably not a good fit.
Speaker 1:It's not personal. Well, you said it earlier too and I meant to kind of bring it back home and reemphasize it, and I don't keep saying it. It's not about always, it's not always about what you know, it's who you know. Networking it's such an important aspect to the job market right now. You need people speaking your name in the rooms you're not in, and there are so many people applying to jobs right now, even if they're not publicly looking, they're quietly looking, and you need somebody to put your resume in front of somebody else's face right now. There's just no way around it.
Speaker 1:If you don't have somebody handing your resume over, just kind of assume it's probably not going to happen. It's a long shot if it is. So yeah, don't apply for every single job you see on the internet. Do the extra time and research to find somebody to make sure that that resume gets to somebody who works there. Since we're on the topic, really quickly, of interviewing, one of our live listeners, jamie, had a question about interviewing. Do you have any tips when it comes to interviewing questions to ask to see if the company knows how they define product manager? I've left interviews or declined to follow up with interviews because I don't feel like they know what they wanted. But it was more of a gut feeling.
Speaker 2:That's a really great question and kudos for leaning into that too and having really the guts to speak up and clarify because you don't want to come away with that misconception. So, interviewing, as a general, as I said before, you know, take awareness that or have some awareness that when you're going after these really big companies, they are very formulaic, they will expect you to do certain things. The loops are difficult. They will expect you to solve questions like I google, I how many restaurants would you estimate are in San Francisco? Go and you can't say, well, I would Google that right now. So you basically have to go through the math and the logic applying to it and things like that. So those companies expect you to be able to. They're calling it thinking outside the box, but actually there's a way to train yourself. So if you're interested, there are companies called it's like PM exercises will literally have examples from a different, a bunch of different companies and how you answer them and so forth.
Speaker 2:But for gauging the culture engaging, essentially like are you on the same page? For that definition I would lean into in the day to day role or the core responsibility for this person, presumably a product manager, what is their focus area? Are they focused on delivery and execution, or are they in the room talking through the strategy, the mission and vision and really advocating for the user? And I think that would be a good starting point for the conversation on are you looking for me to execute, which most good product managers know how to right? In some life you've had a project type of role or you've been able to deliver, whether you are our former informal developer engineer type of background.
Speaker 2:The end of the day, it's not about how to do this, it's why and what, and that's my maybe it's my own personal hill that I will die on and not be eligible for many careers in the future. But I do fundamentally believe that you need to build a partnership with your technical team and that trust that you can then pass off and you can agree to your success criteria, acceptance criteria, you know all of those agile type of functions. You've clarified the language and the expectations and then you've passed the baton for them to deliver and then come back to you with, okay, here's the feedback and here's where we need to judge it a little bit. So those kinds of thoughts of like help me understand a day to day. What is there you can even get into agile if the company operates at agile. If they're not, that would be a huge red flag actually, like if you're not doing agile and you expect product management to come in and be successful. That's more challenging. That, to me, says more program awesome, super helpful.
Speaker 1:And then somebody had asked about um, the uh pm exercises links. Kaylee shared that in the chat too, so thank you, kaylee. All right, let's talk for a few minutes about digital etiquette. I'm gonna start folding some questions into one another because we're getting close to time, but this has been great. I love all the questions we're getting from our audience.
Speaker 2:Thank you, so about digital etiquette really quickly.
Speaker 1:What are some strategies or practices that leaders can implement to foster a culture of digital etiquette within their organizations, and can you define digital etiquette for us as well?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so this is something I've unexpectedly fallen into. It seems to be that my tail in my memoir will be unexpected, but so my time at Expedia, I supported internal products, so I was an internal product manager, essentially looking at our employees as the customer, just for a bit of context. And so what we learned, sometimes rather painfully and other times organically, is that when you're implementing change, when you're implementing new technology or really a shift to even a new platform that is expected to be used by a majority of people and it could be your customer base in general, it could be consumer facing products as well. Think about the nature of behavioral science, essentially, and how people interact within those tools and together. Digital is a Slack user as well, so there are certain kind of cultural norms and mores that are expected and what we learned almost after the fact. So I helped bring Slack to Expedia Group and we consolidated, believe it or not, 11 different messaging platforms, which seems insane but implemented this massive tool and basically said here's some guidelines, here's some things around channel usage and best practices and so forth, but we're not thinking about cultural differences and how this tool could either be a really powerful enabler for the kind of culture you want or be disastrously toxic for it.
Speaker 2:Because a lot of times people have a very blurred line nowadays between work and life right, which is also for better or worse. We kind of go from these technologies and some of the practices we use, whether it's texting your friend, to how you message someone professionally. There's probably some carryover right, use of emojis and shortcuts and things like that. And so what we learned and how to retroactively in state, essentially, or an implement, is this consideration around digital etiquette and not slack bombing, not sending messages one after the other because you're elevating someone's anxiety or saying hey, without any context. I'm sure it would be like no, and people have even I know doves that have even created like um automated to do not tell me hey, whatever else.
Speaker 2:And here's how I want to be responded with right, like super aggressive, but really thinking about how does technology help enable your culture, how can you help educate and not expect that people will assume and understand, because we're all so different, right, and how we operate is different, whether it's generationally, regionally, geographically right, globally. You're going to have different types of cadence as you speak and actually how you interact with technology as well, and so digital etiquette, to me is really thinking about what are the guardrails you can implement, whether it's a configuration and say you cannot do the following here, or the best practices you can help educate so that people have awareness around insensitive speech, not safe for work, emojis, things that could be viewed as gaslighting, aggressive, you know all those kinds of things. It's a really great opportunity to actually make it a bit more neutral, and this isn't about you know your personal life on Reddit. How about it? This is a corporate professional environment, right? Hopefully, in some capacity.
Speaker 2:So, there's going to be different rules and expectations you need to follow, just like you have an appropriate code of conduct right. If you're, hopefully, a thoughtful company around educating people what's expected of them, this should be really folded in, and it does go into security and the type of files and content you put forth, but really it's how do you interact with one another, and that really matters to corporate culture I love it.
Speaker 1:That's's great, super insightful. Yeah, that's so great. All right, let's keep going. Mentorship this one's really important, especially in such a tricky kind of new and evolving space and field. How do you approach mentorship, how do you talk about it and how do you sort of develop a successful? How do?
Speaker 2:you talk about it and how do you sort of develop a successful mentorship relationship Hugely important, especially, as we just mentioned, if you're coming in as the only product manager on a team or maybe it's really early in that company's journey and incorporating product management practices or just in general. Right, I think, finding a community, building a community if you don't have one. At expedia group we broaden it to actually the broader department so it's not just insulated within it and we're able to learn from people that are more mature. Um, it could be outside of your work as well. You know, these kinds of communities are amazing to be a visual for finding and cultivating relationships that can be mutually mentorship-esque.
Speaker 2:Right, like I, have certain backgrounds and skills that you do not, and vice versa.
Speaker 2:How do we lean on that and provide a perspective that's different than our own? And so I think we get caught up in this concept of I need a formal mentor and that's great, I think, if you have someone that you can find and if companies have programs that encourage you know, signing up and kind of aligning on backgrounds and experiences and making that a standing, monthly, weekly connect, great. But it doesn't have to be so formal and so rigid. What we did a lot of times as a team in Expedia is using peer reviews, and so peer review is mentorship in many ways, where you come up and say, okay, I have a presentation coming up, or I have this idea, or I want to pursue something, and we went through these exercises. That may be viewed as a bit brutal to someone new to it, but you really tear down the idea. It's not the person, it's helping you understand the following I love radical candor for that, where it's like I really want to advocate for you and on behalf, but I don't understand this.
Speaker 2:And where is this going? That's a mentorship scenario where that person is helping you think through and refining a message or strategy down to the essentials so that it could be effective, and I think a lot of people walk away and go. Well, that was a mentorship. Well, they taught you a few things and they help you become you know as a sounding board. So those kinds of experiences, too, that are more around, something tactical and actual, actually tangible, could be a great way to learn as well. So I would be open to a variety of ways. Become a mentor even if you feel like you're new to your career, because it's like you know you learn best by teaching. Essentially, having someone to walk through and see it from their perspective will help you.
Speaker 2:Ultimately, I've mentored quite a few people in my career and I've learned so much from their perspective and, just like understanding, especially generationally, like where are you coming from with this? Help me understand how to manage my team better, because I don't speak this language anymore and so I think there's a whole bunch of different flavors. Pursue, you know, internally, externally, build those sorry corporate speak outside your company, inside your company. Um, I think there's a whole bunch of different flavors. Pursue, you know, internally, externally, build those sorry corporate, speak outside your company, inside your company, yeah, and really try to make them authentic. I think the whole thing where it's like okay, give me all the advice Someone's going to be like for what Like?
Speaker 1:I don't know you right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you need to come in prepared. Yeah, I love it when, like, the mentee really kind of owns the relationship and is accountable for sort of setting up the time showing up. I love the construct A former mentor of mine kind of gave this to me of the three C's, which is you come with a comment which is a general status, a celebration, which is something that is worth talking about and celebrating since you met last, and then a concern which usually takes up most of the time but that, even if it's like last minute, I'm like, oh my gosh, okay, I can at least think of one for each of these three C's to go in with, to talk about to make sure that we make good use of the time with them. Because I'm not huge on the formality, like if it's overly formal. And I do agree with you.
Speaker 1:I think the internal is great, but the external there's just this additional sense of psychological safety when you get outside of your company's walls. When you have that kind of trusted, you know, space outside of the corporate walls. That makes it just a little bit easier to have those harder conversations sometimes. And I love your addition of the peer mentorship. I think it's such a big oversight on a lot of our parts that you know somebody that's just a half step even ahead of you. You don't realize like they know, they remember, it's so fresh in their minds like where you are. That's why I know, together digital, we've got our peer groups and I'm like people get into your peer groups leverage that membership benefit because it's such an important aspect of opportunity for growth, and I love that.
Speaker 1:you mentioned Kim Scott and I noticed she's in your book list as well and her book is on my shelf Radical Candor. It's such a great read for those of you who haven't read it Clear but kind. It is a great way to mentor people in a way that provides the opportunity for growth, in a way that is, again, clear but kind. Mentorship yeah, can't say enough about it. It's such an important way to keep people growing. And, again, not leaving the industry, you know, not leaving the industry altogether.
Speaker 1:We've got to keep women in the workforce. You know, we can't keep just running in the other direction. Right, all right, let's see how are we doing on time. Oh my gosh, all right, I'm gonna. Right, let's see how are you doing on time. Oh my gosh, all right, I'm gonna. Let's say, oh my goodness, this has been so good, how? So we've got the list of books, that's great. We've also gotten the list with a chat how folks can connect with you, so that's great. I'm gonna go ahead and wrap with you know, this is this is a. This is a complex little world. This product management and you know digital landscapes constantly evolving. While ensuring that your team stay aligned and focused on goals, how do you kind of stay up to date with things? How do you keep yourself motivated and on track personally?
Speaker 2:That's a great question. Sometimes I do not.
Speaker 1:See, that's okay. I love that answer because that's okay.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:We always want to be peak performance and perfect and on top of everything. That is okay, we just keep doing our best.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, exactly, like. My husband is like, did you beat your clone today? Right Of like, did I exercise? And all the things I'm like. No, today we're buddies, it's fine Like we're just at bare minimum, like showered and had a good meal, that's right.
Speaker 2:I love it, but in terms of trying to help others and right, especially when resources and time are at stake beyond just your own, it's really thinking about the end in mind. So, if you're looking at delivery, if you're looking at what could we do next, and we have 1000 different things coming at us to include, maybe even our executives and leaders have the magpie effect of, like you said, the shiny new thing and they want you to implement. And then we have all this feedback from these teams. It's really being ruthless in your prioritization and really evaluating all the things that are coming at me. And this is actually the expectation for product manager. That's what I would expect them to do is to be that conduit, evaluate all the different potential things that are coming at you and then looking through and saying, well, why would we pursue any of them?
Speaker 2:And having strict criteria, like when it comes to actual, like you are pre-implementation and you are accountable to building that backlog and the list of things that we will go after next and I actually do this personally as well like, of all the 10,000 things I can do, what are the things that are the most important? The book essentialism is amazing for help focusing on that and what are the things that become a distraction where it's like productive distraction. I love that concept of like you feel like you're doing a bunch of stuff but actually it's not helping you move ahead in any direction, so it's like productive distraction. I love that concept of like you feel like you're doing a bunch of stuff but actually it's not helping you move ahead in any direction.
Speaker 2:So it's really looking through that lens of is this gonna bring the value we're looking for, the impact we're looking for? Does this align with our mission and vision strategies? Because all of a sudden you could be presenting something that's like what is this? This doesn't align with any of our goals. But what does exec wanted it? You know, kind of like the hippos. If you ever look up the, the animals of the product kingdom, it's pretty hysterical.
Speaker 2:All the different types of people you may encounter the hippo right, Highest pay person, opinion, saying I'm going to do this, and then people run off and do it and go. Why did you do this? It's like you told us to there's a way to avoid that right is to evaluate did it meet this criteria? Did it score high enough on maybe our heart score of talking to people? But that's actually the number one thing and this is something I do. That's so nerdy. I check in with my family, my friend myself, my friends, like is there anything you want me to change my heart? My husband and I have like reviews, which sounds so ridiculous. But it's like is there anything I did that pissed you off this week that really you felt like I wasn't doing?
Speaker 2:well enough and it comes from a place of 20 years in the making, so we've taken time to really communicate and learn that. But it's seeking that feedback, seeking that introspection and then going back and looking ahead and say how do I do better, how? Do I use this time more effectively. And then it's kind of wash, rinse, repeat over and over.
Speaker 1:I love it. It brings us right back to where we started. I feel it's like now, instead of getting mowed over by being laid off and slowing down, the enforced slow down.
Speaker 2:Now, you've just taken that moment you know, every week to just kind of slow down and reflect. I hope so. Some weeks better than others.
Speaker 1:Some weeks I'm like, ah, we'll just oh oh, I feel you thriving, I feel your friend. Well, we're all gonna take that right. We're just gonna make that promise to each other. Right now. It's friday. We're coming into the weekend. Yes, we are all hard-working overachievers who are going to do good things in the world, but we are also all going to take a breath. We're going to acknowledge and celebrate our wins. If you're a member, jump into win channel, share a win with us. This week. Christina, it's going to be that you are finally on the Together Digital podcast and yeah, and then we're going to.
Speaker 1:we're going to celebrate those wins, we're going to prioritize or keep that end in sight. This was such a fantastic conversation.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad we finally got to have it. There's so much. Take a look in that chat and see just how happy people are with all the amazing stuff you've shared. So be sure to take that in before we hop off Everyone. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure as always, such a blast Again. If you need to chat more with Katsina and you want to, you know nerd out more feel free to.
Speaker 1:You can find her in in our slack, if you're not a member yet. Together in digitalcom, jump on and join us. If not, we hope to see you next week. Until then, everyone, keep asking, keep giving, keep growing. We'll see you next week. Bye, thank you, bye produced by Heartcast Media.
