Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share
Digital is a demanding and competitive field. And women are still grossly underpaid & underrepresented. But we are not powerless; we have each other. Together Digital Power Lounge is your place to hear authentic conversations from women in digital who have power to share. Listen and learn from our amazing guests along with host Amy Vaughan, Owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital. Together Digital is a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital who choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. To learn more, visit www.togetherindigital.com.
Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share
Building Digital Trust
In this episode of The Power Lounge titled "Building Digital Trust," Amy Vaughan hosts Karen Douglas, a digital product leader from companies like Microsoft and Anthem. Together, they explore the role of trust in digital ventures and effective leadership strategies.
Discover how communication impacts team dynamics, the "Skill, Hill, or Will" framework for evaluations, and the importance of psychological safety in fostering innovation. Karen shares insights on rebuilding stakeholder trust from her experiences in distrustful environments.
Join Karen and Amy for practical advice, anecdotes, and the influence of trust-building in digital teams, setting the stage for organizational growth.
Connect with Karen:
Karen Douglas
Digital Product Executive - Microsoft
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karen-douglas-b68a444/
Episode Timestamps:
00:00 - Introduction
05:18 - Trust Building for Efficiency and Reduced Turnover
11:55 - Navigating Workplace Culture Challenges
15:38 - Effective Communication and Task Prioritization
20:49 - Communication and Education: Trust in Marketing
30:52 - Assessing Needs, Skills, Challenges, and Motivation
34:17 - Transparency and Strong Relationships: Trust Building
40:56 - Impactful Small Moment: Support and Friendship
43:13 - Promoting Small Wins for Team Boost
48:14 - Lack of Affirmations: Sudden Interest and Confusion
54:17 - Evaluating User Needs Before AI Adoption
01:03:36 - Outro
Quote of the Episode:
"AI implementation should focus on solving real user problems, not just hype" – Karen Douglas
"Stop moving the goalposts. Deadlines can't keep shifting, scopes can't keep expanding and it truly impacts trust."– Karen Douglas
Hello everyone, welcome to our weekly Power Lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power and connections. You can join the movement at togetherindigitalcom, and today we are going to deep dive into something that actually affects every digital initiative but really gets the spotlight and is much deserved, and that is trust. We are joined today by Karen Douglas, who is an extraordinary digital product leader who has transformed teams at Microsoft Cardinal Health Anthem. You mentioned some others. What were some others you mentioned earlier? To me, karen, I want to give you the credit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, Thank you. Dsw Beauty Counter and certainly agencies in the past as well. Love it so. A wealth of knowledge and experience.
Speaker 1:she's the past as well, Love it so a wealth of knowledge and experience she's bringing to us today. So we're super grateful that she's here and willing to share with us how she has helped to build authentic trust that can either make or break or transform your digital transformation efforts. So get ready for some actionable insights that you all can implement immediately. Live listening audience. As always, we love that you're here with us today. Please join the conversation. Add comments to the chat, add questions to the chat if you have them, and we'll be sure to come back to them once we're through with the interview. But, karen, thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks so much, amy. It's so great to be here. I really appreciate this time and this opportunity to talk about this topic. It's something that you know. If you'd have asked me 20 years ago, you know earlier on my career what I would be talking about at this point. I don't know that I would have said trust, but I do think it is something that, while it seems seems simple, is harder to implement and it's harder to actually create in that team environment than you think.
Speaker 1:And time needs to be spent on it, in doing not in just, you know, like you said agencies, but bigger companies like tech giants, essentially, and traditional companies, which were digital transformation product. You know roles and responsibilities that are literally evolving as we speak. There's a lot of challenges to overcome there. What would you say, though? Bringing it back to trust. What is the biggest misconception about trust in digital initiatives, or even digital product?
Speaker 2:It's a great question, I think, like we said, you know it seems such as like a simple topic, but I think the biggest misconception about trust is that it's assumed and a given. With the team, you know, at the beginning of initiative or, you know, maybe even starting a new job, we assume that everybody is on the same page and automatically trust their leaders or trust their partners. And the truth is that's just not always the case. In some cases it is, and that's wonderful if we've created those environments, but it's not given. It needs to be earned and maintained and I truly believe that's the responsibility of all the leaders. Right, it's about top down, creating an atmosphere of trust and building those relationships with the team members.
Speaker 2:It's not fully, if it's not fully ingrained in the culture, the team or the company is going to have some struggles for sure. And the thing is is like I mentioned, it also has to be maintained. You know it can be lost so quickly without transparency and openness and I think that's something that that, unfortunately, in my experience in all types of companies or initiatives, you know it's. I just don't think that the effort is spent there. It's more about the work and not about the trust of the team.
Speaker 1:And I would imagine that it would be interesting if you could put like numbers to that right. Maybe that would help open some people's eyes to the loss of like cost and productivity when you don't have trust. I mean, think about this. It doesn't even matter if you've been involved in a digital transformation project or launching a product. You still know.
Speaker 1:I think everybody that's listening right now is probably feeling exactly what you're saying, karen, which is that, like it's not, it has to be an ongoing effort. You can never assume it. It's not a one and done. You have to maintain it. But really, how many of us have sat on the other side of initiatives period, right, the coming down from the top without, like you said, that transparency, that understanding, that alignment of goals and objectives from the greater community that's meant to actually do the work? And then what are you going to do? You're going to go back to your desk and you're going to have a big old pitch session, right, about what in the heck was that Like? Why? Why are we doing this? What actually needs to be done? So I just wonder if you could it'd be hard to quantify, but I'm sure that there's hours and money right Lost when you don't establish and maintain trust from the start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would be fascinating if we could run some sort of study that would measure that.
Speaker 2:But it's like, how many hours are the bitch sessions back at the desk or the angry IM chats? How many hours do we spend doing that, sending the mind-blowing gifts and the dumpster fires like we've all done it right, like you know, all set up dumpster fire, you know, like emojis and gifts and things like that, when we are not, but we don't trust what's being told to us or or the direction that a company is going. You know it's more than we probably think. You know it's a great point. It would probably be mind blowing how much time is spent, which you know. That's the point, right. If we focus at least even a percentage of that time on building that trust and relationships with our leaders and our team members, our cross-functional partners, our direct reports you know anyone really, it would just you know that the work would be more valuable and that work would move forward more rapidly and with happier, more content employees, right, which also then reduces turnover. It's the cycle, right?
Speaker 1:Right, because then the training and getting them onboarded and back up to speed, yeah, that all that time, all that money getting lost, what might be you've definitely mentioned like transparency. Do you have any other like strategies, tactics or good takeaways for our listeners to, kind of, when you're launching an initiative, what are some ways in which you can begin to kind of open up the door and allow for opportunity to build and gain trust?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know. Transparency, I think, is probably the key. I think you know, from a leadership perspective, being open and honest even when mistakes happen is pretty critical. I love that. Coming with humility, coming with honesty, providing updates. Don't leave your team in the dark. They're just sitting there wondering what the next step is. Especially in the past few years where technology has been in, the market has been volatile. Everyone's sitting there wondering whether or not they're going to have a job tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Be, open with them, Tell them what's going on, tell them about the initiative and why we need to move forward with it. Give them a reason to believe in what's happening. Open the conversation up, ask the tough questions and expect to answer them. And I think and I think that's and that's sort of on everyone really is we need to be open enough to not be afraid and avoid the difficult questions that may come from our team or our cross-functional partners or our direct reports or even our leaders. Right, Don't avoid it. Yeah, your team knows when you're doing it Right?
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, we sometimes think we're getting away with something, but if you could see the DMs. You would know otherwise.
Speaker 1:I love this because I do think, and I agree it's in this kind of market, especially within our industry, creating and establishing psychological safety for the sake of being able to let people be creative and as innovative and as productive as you want them to be is really hard. So I think right now, leaders should be leaning in even harder this time to kind of establish and make that. One thing I learned from somebody and I think it might've been one of our past podcast episodes, where somebody had offered up the advice of don't give everything to your team as a done deal. Don't say here's the project, here are the goals, here's the objectives, here are the timelines, and then just say this is what it is Like. Actually give them stuff. That, because sometimes I feel like by doing that I'm setting them up for success, I'm helping them.
Speaker 1:All the details have been thought of. But depending on the type of person that you're working with and the majority of people especially, they're going to look at it and say I had no contribution to this, I had no skin in the game here, I wasn't consulted on any of this, and so they were like bring things that are actually unfinished and give them opportunities to engage, to contribute, because then then buy-in's real, because it's like they've contributed, they've put something towards it, so they're more likely to follow through than if everything's just a done deal every time it comes to them.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You know, I think, as a leader in digital product space, yes, I've led teams, I've led large initiatives. I've done a lot of things. However, I know, and I have always told the people that are working with me for me you know, cross functionally I know I'm not the smartest person in the room all the time the best ideas come from the collective voice of the team. So, to what you're saying, Amy, don't come in with a fully baked plan. Leverage the experts that you have around you and that way you've got the buy-in, the collective buy-in, from the group, and everyone understands that we're all in this together and this was our idea. This was our initiative.
Speaker 2:This was our plan, right. And then the flip side to that is then give credit where credit's due. Yes, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:If it's your idea, amy.
Speaker 2:I'm going to make sure everybody knows that it was Amy's idea. And I think that is so incredibly important and that is a huge thing that I think sometimes is missing to help develop the trust of the team?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, because when somebody is up there and they're speaking to the work that you did and they don't give credit, it just feels like they are taking credit because they are the ones presenting which. I've heard, seen and felt that an awful lot, and it just occurred to me too as you were talking.
Speaker 1:It's just like it's so easy, right, to let our own concern for our self-image and perfectionism get in the way of our ability to be good leaders. And if you can kind of start to let those things go, you're modeling something really good for your team, whether you believe it or not, and then I think a lot of it does help lead to trust. And then it's, I think it takes the pressure off you as a leader to show up perfect and, you know, invaluable every time, because you're just not. That. That's a lot of work and effort on top of your job leading, so let it go. You know, I'm not saying like don't try, but it's like stop trying to be perfect every time. It's not. It's not the right image you want to put out there to the people that you want to gain and maintain their trust. No, you're 100% right. I completely agree with that. Well, let's get into some storytelling, which we always love here in the Power.
Speaker 1:Lounge. I was hoping you could maybe share a story or a time when the lack of trust kind of derailed a project, and if and how you were able to turn that around.
Speaker 2:Yeah, unfortunately there's probably multiple examples I could come up with, as I'm sure anyone who's listening probably is thinking of the examples right now. One thing that I think I'll talk about an example of when I first started at a company, a culture of well, and actually I think you know how. You don't always know what you're walking into, whether it be with a new team or a new initiative or a new company. You have no. You can ask the culture questions all you want in an interview or something like that, but until you're there, you don't really know what culture you're stepping into, and that can be really difficult. So, you know, my, my advice is don't come in guns blazing and think you've got a, you've got the, you've got the answer for everything.
Speaker 2:However, the example I want to talk through is you know, I walked into an environment, um, where a culture of distrust was really already in place with the digital product team, which I then was leading um, the tech team and engineering team, you know, with this particular stakeholder group. I had to kind of dive into that and what I really found out was they just felt like whatever they wanted to get done, technically launched, just was not a priority and that no one cared and it was never going to happen, just was not a priority, and that no one cared and it was never going to happen. And so you know, I needed to dig into that because of course, I'm on the engineering team extended engineering team so I can't, you know, like really bash the team that I just joined more time with them and really dig into their business, their expectations, their customer base, their user base and what their leadership expectations were on them. Because the truth is is all of these different stakeholder groups have accountabilities and responsibilities to their leaders and they might be completely in conflict with what I think they should be or my team thinks they should be, and so that's kind of what I found out.
Speaker 2:So what I did and my team did is we started to really focus and spend time with them. We did a couple of things. We first started with beefing up our communication right Recurring meetings, trying to get to know them, understanding them, asking them questions, asking them for information, and then also making sure that when we're communicating, we're giving them the full view of the work that was happening in engineering Right, so that they they could get the fact that it wasn't, that there was nothing happening right, no one's sitting on their hands doing nothing.
Speaker 2:We needed to educate them about what was happening so that they could start to see what was really happening. As far as education, not only were we educating them on what was really happening, but I also recognized that we needed to educate them on really the process of digital development. Yes, and it's interesting, we were talking before we jumped on this podcast In the digital product space, it's no matter where I've worked and I've worked at some giants and ones that you wouldn't expect to be this way but they still don't totally understand what digital product is, after being one of the first ones to have that title years ago to now. It's the same, whether you go into a small company or a large company or a consulting opportunity, there's still an education that needs to happen about the role of digital product and what the development process really is like. So we spent a lot of time explaining that, helping them understand what we were there to do and that we were there to help them. And really, you know simple things how long does something take to build? What does our infrastructure look like? Are we able to even do the thing you're asking for right now, or do 10 things have to happen before it, Right. And that helped them understand that it wasn't that they were being ignored, it's just it couldn't happen right now, for whatever reason. Right.
Speaker 2:And then the third thing we did, so it was like we communicated and we educated and then we helped with prioritization, which is the job of digital product right, it's to help prioritize and help those stakeholders prioritize what is the most important and why? Right. What is the data that we have? What is our user base telling us we need to do right now? What is going to move the needle? Are there some small quick wins that we can get out the door? And how does all that play with everything else that's on the plate of the engineering team? Right. And so I would have to ask them point blank what's your number one? And well, we want to do this now. Well, which things push down? And we'd have to have those really hard conversations. You cannot have 10 number ones, right. And so, over time, and to be honest, number ones, right.
Speaker 2:And so, over time, and to be honest, you know, this isn't rocket science, this is just stuff that has to be done to develop the relationship, develop the trust and to help people understand where you're coming from and you know, with that process which, by the way, was not overnight, it was months.
Speaker 2:This isn't something that is in an hour conversation you can take care of. It is months of consistency and when they can count on you and they know how to reach you and they can ask you questions we were able to start to be hyper-focused on what the biggest bang for our buck was when it came to helping them move their needle, and I then was able to advocate on their behalf with the rest of the engineering team to say, hey, hold on, this is going to drive X amount of dollars, this is going to drive X amount of impressions, this is going to drive X amount of revenue. And by helping build those relationships, we were able to get some things out the door and they were thrilled. It had been a year since one of their initiatives had actually hit the market Right and we were able to do it. It took about four months, I would say, but that was huge for them. And then it's success. And then I built their trust and then they started seeing how we were going to chip away at their goals.
Speaker 1:I love it. Yeah, I can see how prioritization could definitely be the thing that helps move the business and the needle forward, because if you've got people scurrying in all directions and everything's that priority, nothing becomes the priority.
Speaker 1:And then everybody gets blamed for the lack of results, but it's like if you do slow your roll and you allow for the education and all of that, then what opens up is the chance for you to look really good. You know, on the other side of it, because you're listening to your people and you're understanding their advice, because I think on you know, it's always a good indicator when you get that sense of and if you're like working on your EQ as a leader, you know it doesn't take a whole lot to know it, to see it, to feel it. But on the other side of that, fear, frustration or hesitation when it comes to your team, the opposite, the other side of that is understanding, and so I think that's where you're right, like education, and I think all of the marketers listening to this call, they know they live this right every day. You know you have to constantly educate. Yes, okay, I know you want a you know 10 page social media strategy with key performance indicators and an ideal customer profile, audience and paid media strategy by tomorrow. However, I need to be able to do these things. I need to pull this research and be able to kind of pull all that together. So you know it's. It's kind of sometimes, I think, it seems daunting to have to educate, but I'm like, if you don't speak up and advocate for yourself, who will? And then all of a sudden, the idea becomes that all of these things are done quickly and without much effort, and then the assumption gets made that that can always be the case, and then you have burnout and people leaving and again we're just falling into the same pitfalls over and over and over again.
Speaker 1:I do want to jump ahead to one of our questions because I think it ties nicely to your answer for the last, and it's stakeholders. Right, we've talked a lot about team alignment, but then we've got the stakeholders to consider and building their trust as well. I think some of the things you were talking about. So I just wanted to reemphasize some of those points and see if you had other points you wanted to add on. How do you maintain transparency while managing the expectations during complex digital transformations with those stakeholders? So not just your team, but the people that are sitting above you going. We want our numbers, we want our results.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's. It's exactly what we were just talking about. It is, you know, regular upfront updates, being upfront, being transparent, being open. You know, as they say, bad news does not get better with age. So you have to bring the challenges up and out as soon as possible. Don't be afraid to do it. You know it is, it is part of the job, right?
Speaker 2:And I think even that, even even bringing up the bad things or the things that are going to be behind, or that we're, we're, we might miss a deadline, it's still about trust, right, because then you can come at them and just tell them the truth and here's the plan that we've got going on, or hey, I need your help to help solve this problem. Like, that is totally fine. It's when you keep it to yourself, that's when you lose the trust. So I think, other than that, I think, just to reiterate it, I think, as a digital product professional and probably this applies to your point to all marketers, unfortunately, we will always be educating, like, whether you like it or not, that's just kind of how it is, and so I think, having you know, be prepared for that, if you have the materials that you, that you want to use to help educate. If you have, you know, a one pager or something that you want to share.
Speaker 2:If you have, or in every company is a little bit different, right? So the processes while we all think we're agile, we're all at different parts of that journey and I think it's important to educate how the processes that your organization work, yeah, and also be open to feedback when those processes can be improved, and also be open to feedback when those processes can be improved or that communication can be improved. So, yeah, it's asking the hard questions of the stakeholders and not being afraid if they provide you a critique. Take that as an opportunity to just make it better and look for what they need. And it's not always a one size fits all. Sometimes you have to evolve to your C-suite or to your direct reports or to your cross-functional team to find the meeting cadence and the conversation cadence or timeline or all of that that works best for the team. Just be flexible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think those routine type of team check-ins, one-on-ones, all that stuff is so, so critical and I think sometimes in the busyness of the day-to-day we tend to deprioritize that. But I think that's a really easy door to kind of, you know, leave open and then start having trust, walk right out with it.
Speaker 2:And I love what you said at the beginning.
Speaker 1:There too, I think there's a mindset shift for some of us that, yeah, it is your job as the subject matter expert, as the product expert, to point out the obstacles, the barriers, the potential non-desirable outcomes, the issues. That is part of you doing your job. I think sometimes we think we have to be all sunshine and rainbows and happy news and everything's going perfect and not to say you need to like be a negative Nelly and point out every possible issue. But it's like you know, think ahead and be proactive where you can and then, when kind of stuff hits the fan, like, be that person who's brave enough to step up before, like you said, don't let it get bad news. Doesn't get old, doesn't age well, so don't let it just sit there, cause then you're going to come to them and be like why didn't you tell us this sooner? You know that's the worst.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on the flip side to that and this goes back to leadership it has the responsibility of building trust. You know there has to be um an open enough relationship. Yes, that's a great point, because I do know and I have worked in environments like this in the past, where you were, you know you're afraid to give the bad news right. Oh yeah, you know you have a leader who might not accept that and the truth is that's a problem. That is a cultural issue that needs to be addressed at that company or in that team. Potentially, because you know you, you do need to be able to feel comfortable to go share the bad news. In most cases, most leaders I've worked with are have always said bring it to me right away.
Speaker 2:But there have been a few in my experience, or even just an observation of others, that you know there's a fear in giving the bad news. Yeah, and, to be honest, if you run into that, call them out. You need to call out your leaders on that and ask for support from other team members, because that's not fair.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, because yeah. And then my thought was, as you were describing, that again all very familiar sounding it's for me it's. At one point I just I kind of just came to the understanding that that was more of a them problem than a me problem. Like if I can't come to you with honest feedback about something critical to the business and the business success, because if my only goal and objective is for us to succeed as a business and I'm bringing value and equity to the company, we're probably getting paid peanuts compared to you know what that equity is then I just it maybe might, it might not be the right kind of fit or culture for me.
Speaker 1:I always did do well with leaders that you know had that kind of open door, open mind policy to you know, had that kind of open door, open mind policy to you know cause it wasn't like I was going to ever bring something just to bring something. No, it was always because I knew it was a tried and true issue that needed to be addressed or, you know, have a conversation about. So I agree with you, there is definitely a lot of that fear just based on certain leadership styles.
Speaker 2:I think you know cause it's like but then the majority are not that way. But you know, just to say, like you know it is, it is hard to give bad news sometimes, but the truth is is if, if you've, if you've worked on those relationships, you know it should be easy right, You're like help, I mean hard to say it, but right to do it, exactly because you built that relationship.
Speaker 1:Definitely let's talk about cross-functional teams as a really important aspect of building trust and relationships. It's really critical. I'm kind of curious, karen how are you seeing this and how are you approaching this now that we are in this world of remote and hybrid?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great question, you know, in this world of remote and hybrid, yeah, it's a great question. You know, I I've had the opportunity to work remotely for almost eight years now, so before it was popular, and so this took me some time to understand, really, because I was definitely the person who loved to chat, you know, and build relationships in person. I like people telling me I have cute shoes and a bunch of things like that, you know, and you don't get that right when you're remotely and things like that. So I think the obvious answer is we have all these digital tools like the super obvious part is use your IM, use your email, use your Zoom calls, do all of that right. That's the obvious answer. But where I see other opportunities is really around spending time with your cross-functional teams.
Speaker 2:We cannot underestimate the power of getting to know each other personally period, full stop. It is so incredibly powerful. Full stop. It is so incredibly powerful. We, when effort is spent on actually building relationships, we break down the work walls Right and start to work together as human beings instead of coworkers, and that is hugely valuable in remote and hybrid environment.
Speaker 2:You know, this can look like all kinds of things. It could be one on ones, it could be whatever, it could be literally just stopping the conversation altogether because someone mentioned something and forgetting about work for your scheduled Zoom call. Imagine that, right, we're always so focused and we go from next call to next call to next call and, yes, we have work to do and, yes, we're all time crunched and, yes, it's all important, but it's not more important than asking someone about their weekend or understanding what's happening in their family life, or finding something that you have in common with them, that you are then sharing things that you found online that they might enjoy and getting to know them personally. So, in my mind, it's always, always, always should be people first, building relationships, and the trust and the work will follow.
Speaker 1:I love that. Yeah, I like that Treating people as human beings, not human doings. Yeah, and I even catch myself. I mean I really try hard to be intentional about, like when I start a meeting. I want the first five minutes to just kind of be.
Speaker 1:I really want to know how we're doing right, you know we try so hard to be like okay, it's not a 30 minute, it's a, it's a 25 minute, it's like, no, just make it 30 and spend five minutes checking in with each other. And then even it sounds crazy, but it's even the little things, because I am very much like, okay, move on things and quick, quick, quick, task, task, task that I'll be reaching out to somebody and I always have to go back. I'll write out the thing that I need and then I go back and add, like how are you today? And a little bit of a personal statement after the fact, because it's always something that I'm like, okay, I don't need to. Just, even if it's a Slack message, you know something as quick as that. I still try to slow down and make sure I say hi, how are you? And like me, and how, really I want to know how you were doing you know like legitimately care the way you ask those things.
Speaker 1:Even that can always be tweaked or made more efficient. So, for those of you who are in leadership positions or managing others, it really doesn't. You don't have to move mountains to be effective at this. It really is nuancing and looking at the ways in which you're communicating with your team currently and just finding more ways to be personable and human and, yeah, acknowledge what they've got going on inside their life and outside of life. Because one of the things I heard from a really great mentor of mine he said a lot of times with people when they're struggling right, if you have somebody on, say, a performance review, which is never fun when you're having to deal with that, he says it's either skill, hill or will. And skill is obviously they don't have the skills needed to sort of accomplish the task that's been given to them.
Speaker 1:Hill is the fact that, like okay, there could be something going on. So usually, like I kind of come at this when I'm struggling with somebody to say, like okay, do you have what you need? Do you know what actually needs to be done? Is this clear to you? Do you have the tools? Do you know how to use the tools?
Speaker 1:And then the other is the hill, and the hill sometimes is personal. You not know it, but they've got a dog. That's like having to go into the vet every day. That's basically a part of the family and they're distressed in doing and dealing with that, especially in our remote world. Right, because we are multitasking and dealing with things with home and life all at the same time at work as well, which was it not before so much the case. And then the last one is will, and he's like that's really sometimes the last kind of straw that breaks the camel's back. Oftentimes it's like that's something that you sometimes can't get from them because they just don't have the motivation to do it. But if you can unearth the skill in the hill and get those both solved, then really it's just a matter of will from there, and I love that framing. So I wanted to get back and share it. I think I might have shared it before on a podcast, but no.
Speaker 2:I think that's great For cross-functional teams too.
Speaker 1:It's really, really helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it seems so simple. Right, spend time with people, but you know, we don't, we don't. We have these deadlines, we have these deadlines, we have all these things and, yes, they're real. But, like we talked about earlier, if we could just take all the time of the angry DMs and water cooler conversations complaining about and we could take that time and turn it into building those relationships with people.
Speaker 2:just imagine what we could do to the bottom line and to the culture and to like work-life balance or everything else, or in just overall job satisfaction for individuals, and you can't tell me that there aren't like financial benefits to doing that. So, take the time, make it a priority, set up one-on-ones that have nothing to do with work, right.
Speaker 1:I wish we could quantify that again too, to just really truly understand from the top down stakeholders and all that that really needs to be the case and that there is. There are results behind those efforts. It's not just you know, and I think we're starting to get there with, like, it's not just soft skills. These are skills, period, that are essential in leadership and communication and managing teams. On that note, do you have a framework for helping people create psychological safety within teams, especially when you're kind of pushing an innovative solutions and or dealing with everything we just talked about, right, Everything else happening in the world?
Speaker 2:You know, it's interesting that psychological safety I have a different perspective, I think, than some may, or maybe, maybe not. I think psychological safety, the whole concept of psychological safety, is really the responsibility and accountability of both leaders and individual contributors. You know, I think, of course, as leaders, we, our teams, deserve to be able to have open dialogue with us. We need to, as I mentioned earlier, we need to welcome, not avoid, the tough questions and challenges. Of course, be transparent, like we talked about earlier as well. And again, your team is well aware. When you're not, they can tell. When you're withholding information, of course there's things that you aren't able to share, things like that. But then tell them that. Just say that I'm unable to tell you at this time. I promise you when I can, I will Let them know. I think time spent, as we've been talking about, on building those relationships helps to build that psychological safety. And if we've done the groundwork of spending time getting to know people, creating open dialogue, being transparent, giving credit where credit was due, and we've done all these other things we've already discussed, I don't think psychological safety will be an issue. It's not because you've created that culture of trust by just doing those other things.
Speaker 2:Now, on the flip side, as I mentioned, I think it's also the responsibility of the individual contributor. You know, there is a point that where leaders do and are asked to make really tough decisions and they're not always popular, right, and it might be exactly what you don't want them to do, but they're in that position for a reason and they're being asked to do those things so, again, if you have that foundation of the relationship and the trust you've got to give them a little bit, cut them a little bit of slack in that, recognize who it's coming from, why it's coming from them, and that they, you know, they have, they're in this position and they have to make these decisions. So, to me, as an individual contributor, if I have that relationship with my leader or team, um, and as long as those decisions are not unethical, right, at some point we need to just get the work done too. Yeah, so I think that the concept of psychological safety, um, is, is like I said, it's, it's a, it's a, it's more than just a leadership problem.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, it's a whole conversation around the trust and all of that, and then at some point understanding that leaders have to be leaders sometimes, and it's not easy.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think that's where leaders showing up in a vulnerable way and a more transparent way serves them well when they have to sit down and have those difficult conversations, right, for example? Yeah, exactly Cause there's certain things that it's a hundred. A more transparent way serves them well when they have to sit down and have those difficult conversations, all right.
Speaker 1:For example yeah, exactly Because there's certain things that's 100%, that's out of their control, and it's like I've definitely had those leaders that have been that they've been authentic, they've been transparent in a way that is still like professional, but helpful and supportive, and it has allowed us to get through really difficult situations and scenarios and for me, being on the receiving end of the some of the negative side effects of those scenarios, I walked away mad at one less person, like it's like when you get bad news, that's all you need is to have more angst, more anger, more anxiety over one person.
Speaker 1:So I think again, like you know, as a leader you know, having been led a lot of, having led a lot of teams I have just really found giving them an appropriate peek behind the curtain to some things and being like I don't always have the answers, I don't always have the final say, in true honesty, is so much easier than trying to pretend I have all this authority that I don't. So that when things come down the line and and I really maybe I've, I've they do I've advocated, because that's just who I am.
Speaker 1:Right, advocating things, but like at, the end of the day, I didn't win and this is what it's going to be, and that's not easy, but then that again, that to me just feels better and like, okay, I get it, but, and I can get behind that it's not.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to love it, but I know you're not loving it either and I think that that's really, really helpful in the way of you know, of just creating a space for psychological safety.
Speaker 1:I don't think we have to be accountable for anybody else's psychological safety per se. I'm kind of with you on that. I think it's more about creating that space to allow for it, because even still, like you, like you have to think about the fact that people are coming with baggage and past experiences and trauma so you can create all the psychological safety you want as a leader. That doesn't mean they're still going to be able to show up in that way. It's going to take time, energy, effort, maybe a little bit of digging, even and that's where I also think managers and leaders, especially leaders of innovation, that maybe kind of frightens people. I think that's where you know, just the vulnerability as a leader actually comes into play to help you be stronger as such, because it's like, instead of people being fearful of you every time you want to come and talk to them, they're just like oh yeah, no big deal.
Speaker 1:All right, let's talk about what the thing is, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I've had lots of experiences with that. You know both where I received the news I didn't want to hear, um, and where I had to deliver news that I knew wasn't going to be popular, and it's hard, it's hard, Um. I think you said something earlier. As long as your team knows that you're advocating, I think that's important, right? They need to know that you're behind them as a leader and you've got their back. You know I have been called mama bear in the past.
Speaker 2:I take it as a huge compliment, because I think that's my job as a leader and I always look for leaders that are going to treat me that way, that are going to advocate for me and speak up for me and remind people that I have value right or that I have good ideas, just like I want to do with my team. Like we talked about giving credit where credit is due. Um, I think that's important. I think if you have that trust, that to your point, even when you have to deliver the bad message, they know it's not you Right, and they know it might just be budget, it might just be tough times or might just be a no, not right now. It might be coming from a board member. Who knows what it's coming from right A million other reasons.
Speaker 2:You know, they know it's not you, they know you tried, they know you gave it your best effort. It still stinks when you have to deliver that, those messages that people don't want to hear. But then I think you can also be vulnerable and say you know what? I agree, I wish that this was different. I wish the situation had played out differently, but it didn't. And here's where we are and we have a choice to make now.
Speaker 1:You're not sleeping under the rug, you're not diminishing their feelings or the outcome of what's being done. You are acknowledging that in full and, like you said, this is trust, is such a two-way street, creating psychological safety for one another as a two-way street and, I have to say, outside of just getting your business goals and objectives done and making money and hitting metrics, like all that's important. But there's longevity to this too. It just reminded me of when we had a mass amount of layoffs at one of our agencies and I'd forgotten that I had done this. And when I tell people they're like of course, you did that, amy.
Speaker 1:One of the C-suite guys came out of one of the rooms, the huddles, where they were doing the layoffs, and he just was a wreck, just looked miserable, and I just walked up and I guess I gave him a hug and I said are you okay? Do you need anything? And it was years later and he tells me that you did this and he's like I don't know if you remember doing this, but you did this for me and I have never forgotten and I kid you not, this person has supported this organization. He has supported other initiatives for minorities and things like that.
Speaker 1:Like you know, he has used his privilege, you know, to show up and has been a great supporter and even friend to me since then, and it was just one small little moment that I honestly barely remember that you know again, when you show up, even with a little bit, of creating psychological safety for your own coworkers even your leader sometimes and being that safe space for them pays off in the long run. Because, at the end of the day, we're not just this one job, we're not just this one role, right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, that's. I love that story and you're right, you were probably in the thick of your own, blurred in that situation. And again, that humanness, that remembering that people are still humans at the end of the day. You know people first always.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was like that was the worst day of my life, he's like. Worst day, he's like. But that really helped me in that moment because, you know, I still a wreck for the rest of the day, the week, the month, however long, but he's like. I never want to have to go through that again, but he's like it really did make a difference. So, yeah, just don't be shy about showing up, even for your leaders, because sometimes they forget they're human too.
Speaker 1:And I think for me that was a really good way to get through even some of my most challenging and most difficult, either, whether it was a cross-functional team member or another team member or a leader. It's just kind of creating that psychological safety for them as well. Again, I think we do ask for it a lot as employees, but you know, you've got something to offer as well. That's right.
Speaker 2:Good point, good reminder yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, I would love to hear a little bit more about your unique perspective on turning small wins into enterprise-wide impact, because you've worked at some big places, as we've mentioned already. I'd love for you to talk us through a little bit of your approach there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know we we've touched on it a little bit, but I think turning small wins into enterprise impact. It all goes back to what we've been saying. You know, my foundation is always in this build relationship give credit where credit is due. I think the number one thing we can do as leaders is brag about our team, promote the small wins across the organization, give credit where credit is due and recognize the hard work and the efforts of the team early, and often, even if the work is relatively small, it's still important to celebrate it. You know, when we do that, we we not only energize our team and make them feel good, which will then encourage them to go do more, better work, but we also promote the team in a way to the organization, so that the organization will then have trust in us.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. So if we can prove to the organization you know, in a digital product perspective, that we can, maybe then the cool work will follow. Yeah Right, the cool work will follow, because we all want to do the cool work.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And we'll be trusted with that bigger initiative because we've proven the small wins. So the small wins have a huge impact to the overall larger initiatives because again the team is tested, proven and then all of a sudden we get into a rhythm and then here you go, their new cool initiative gets funded and there's confidence across the organization and the team that you can do it.
Speaker 1:I love it. That is fantastic, such a good, good reminder, because I think, yeah, it's true, we just kind of move from one small initiative to the next small to the next big and we never really slow down to take a moment and celebrate. And creating those moments of celebration reinforce the positive right. It sounds silly, but like if anybody's here raising kids, you know, like punishment and fear and all of that kind of stuff A lot of us were raised that way and it worked to a degree but it didn't substantiate trust, it didn't necessarily create better outcomes, but by kind of building up these wins for your team, it's building momentum and giving them the opportunity to show up and shine and be their best selves.
Speaker 1:One thing I learned I was at a company where, when I first started, they asked me what my love language was. And I was like you, what what's a love language? I didn't even know at the time and then I wanted to know well why. I was like I'll definitely take the test and I'll tell you, but I'm curious as to why. And they said because that's how we like to make sure we recognize people. You know we one guy in particular like words of affirmation was not his jam, like it really put him in an uncomfortable position.
Speaker 1:But then some of us who we often the whole idea of, if you're not familiar, is that we often give love in the way in which we like to receive it. However, certain people don't always receive in the same way, so it's things like words of affirmation, physical touch, gifts, acts of service. And let's see the other one, oh, quality time. Look at me. I remembered all five Very good, and so knowing what your team's individual love languages are actually could translate into how you acknowledge the things that they're doing at work, the ways in which you might celebrate the wins, because I knew never to make a public admiration about Steven, because he would literally be in the corner in a ball, huddled up like fetal positioned.
Speaker 1:I just please stop talking about me. You know it was really more. Let's the two of us go hang out and have lunch together or buy him a small gift. You know, so kind of knowing those individual things will, I think, even take what you just said, which is brilliant, that kind of celebrating the small wins to the next level, not just for your whole team but on an individual level as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. I think that's a great connection to love languages. I'm very familiar, yeah, and you're right. And in a virtual world it's trickier, right, and so not everybody wants the Slack message with with all the little emojis next to it, so that's saying congratulations or celebrate, right, so that's a really good point to make. It becomes a little bit more more tricky because you don't have access or quick access to all of those, so you have to get creative. Maybe it's sending a digital gift card, right, and that's enough. But I think you're right, you've got to get to know and invest in your team and kind of understand what it is that they, that they like and appreciate. And again, I think those small wins it just the kudos, in whatever way, is necessarily Sari are, are it just again creates an environment where they want to be there. Um, they know that they're respected and they're appreciated. Um, and again, bigger things can come from that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, absolutely. I had a boss when I was, uh, I worked through, all through college and I did so much for that office and it was so funny because he was not the kind of person who ever said thank you and I wouldn't say that I'm really high on words of affirmation, but I think at the time I certainly was, and with that job it was. It was something that I needed more of, because I remember being blindsided when I left school and he, like offered to like double my salary to stay Once I finished school. And I'm like but you don't even do you even like me working here. I had no verbal affirmations whatsoever for him from like for three years. All of a sudden he's like oh, let's go to breakfast, let's talk about you staying. And I'm like but I just went through three years of school to get out of here.
Speaker 1:But if you would have been working all along and understood and known what I needed and the ways of affirmation that I was doing a good job, then maybe I'd have been ready to say I would consider staying, but it was just so out of the blue.
Speaker 2:I'm like, who is this person? Yeah, I kind of missed the mark on that. An opportunity, that whole time, right.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it was funny, it was a good, it was a good scenario there and yeah, no, he was, he was fun to work for. Still, regardless, but all right, how do you balance the need for rapid iteration with building trust, that constant tension of deadlines, timelines and then all of these nuanced things we're kind of talking about in building trust?
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, to me this is easy. It's stop moving the goalposts, just stop. Establish clear goals and priorities from the top down. Um, you know, we we talked about earlier, you can't have 10 number ones and while there's nothing, that nothing, in my opinion nothing derails a team or reduces the trust more than constant change. Yes, I mean, it's just not something.
Speaker 2:You know, we, we're, we're a lot of us are type A's and we're planners and we're organizers and we map out what we think our next month is going to look like for work, and then to have it flipped on its head and have to recreate the wheel 10 times really destroys the trust. So you know, like I said, that's a leadership challenge, right, it's. It's all the C-suite, or the decision makers, aligned If they're not, stop, get aligned and then come back to the team. Don't let the team sit in that swirl. Yeah, because you know, and that's what I mean by stop moving the goalposts. Right, because you know, the deadlines can't keep shifting, the scope can't keep getting bigger, the the. You know, and again, I'm probably preaching to everybody who's listening, because we've all lived this, but it really does affect the trust.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And you're going to slow things down, not speed things up, because you have to replan and reorganize over and over, and, over and over again and no actual good work gets out the door.
Speaker 1:Yeah, should be on a t-shirt.
Speaker 2:Stop moving the gold. That's a soundbite, by the way, yeah.
Speaker 1:Post-production team right there. That was like solid gold there. That little like 15 seconds. It's so true. It's such a simple answer and I but sometimes it doesn't seem that simple, but it is it's so very true the the more the dynamics and the change. It's just like you because, again, right, then all of a sudden you're just like you start working towards a new direction and then you're like, well, what's the point of working so hard on this? Because I know in five minutes it's going to change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, exactly, and, and it's not a and no one wants to feel, or you know, I don't want to feel like I'm not accomplishing something, and I think when, when that happens, and frequently or frequently, it just creates that, that environment where nothing ever gets done, and it's a common it's like a joke after a while right.
Speaker 2:It's common, unfortunately, in digital product, and so this is near and dear to my heart and I feel this to the core when I talk about it. But really it goes back to what's your company's strategy. What do you want to be when you grow up? What do you want to do in the next six to 12 months? Right, like, what are you? What's your target? You know, what customer base are you going after what? What market do you want to enter into? I mean, there's a million questions, right? What do our users need? How do we increase revenue in this way, instead of trying to boil the ocean Because when we boil the ocean as leaders.
Speaker 2:That's when the goalposts change Yep, yep, and you need a C-suite or a leadership group or a board who's all aligned to the same goals yeah, no, I love that, that's. Oh, that could be a whole nother hour, right it is like I can feel it in my chest, like I'm like, oh, because, yeah, it does.
Speaker 1:It becomes a joke. People don't take things as seriously it's the boy who cried wolf in business form and building products, exactly, exactly and that applies to anything right marketing campaigns and anything right.
Speaker 2:Stop moving the goalposts. Yeah, I love it, that's great. I mean all right and with within reason. Of course, there are some pivots that are required, right, market shifts and some, you know look, we have example in california right now that there's there's fires happening. Something's going to have to change and drop because something catastrophic is happening or something huge market shift is happening. So of course, there's always those exceptions, but most of the time they're just exceptions not the rule.
Speaker 1:No, I love that, I like, and you said there, it's a great example. Give context again. Context and clarity, more transparency to why it's okay. Yeah, the post is moving, but here's why You're going to get better alignment and better reaction. People might not be happy, but at least they have an understanding going in as to what happened and why, especially if it's out of anyone else's control. All right, let's see. Okay, this wouldn't be a marketing and product conversation without bringing up AI, of course, so I was curious to hear from you what role does trust play in AI implementation and adoption, because it has a struggle for some people in different places and organizations.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's funny. You know, in digital, every few years we have a new trend right, it was, you know, responsive design. At one point I'm dating myself. It was, you know, responsive design. At one point I'm dating myself.
Speaker 2:Um, omni-channel, you know, transformation, like all these things right, are are the buzzwords and that it's AI. Right, and we know that and, believe me, I am, I use AI in my personal life and my professional life almost daily. I mean, it definitely makes life easier. It's awesome. But, coming from a digital product perspective, I will say we need to ask ourselves, or continue to ask ourselves, what problem are we trying to solve with AI? Yes, right, regardless. You know, we tend to get all wrapped up in the new hotness and the new shiny object of the day, and that's what AI is right now and again, awesome.
Speaker 2:But let's go back to our fundamental roots of how we solve things for our users, right? What are the problems the users are seeing? What does our current data tell us that AI is going to help with? What problem are we trying to solve? Can our current infrastructure even support it? I mean, I have seen and have been part of organizations who think, oh, I'll just build AI and I'll just bolt it onto what I've got right now, but the truth is it's not going to happen because there's a whole foundation that needs to be built before we can implement it. Right, are there bigger pain points that we should be addressing with our customers or our users?
Speaker 2:First, because, yes, it's cool, but if our fundamental e-commerce site, for example, or digital app, you know, whatever experience isn't even at par, why are we talking about ai exactly?
Speaker 2:Right, like, I think, before insisting that the team go off and build these things, let's like, you know, just because it's the new cool thing, yep, let's make sure that we're focused and we have the strategy behind it, um, that the data and the strategy are front and center and it truly, and then it will make the team, it will create the trust within the team. Right, the just because? Answer because everybody's doing it isn't going to cut it for the team's perspective and we talked about earlier perspective and we talked about earlier not being the smartest in the room. Listen to your experts about what needs to be put in place prior or where you might want to focus some efforts or parallel path. Right, fix the foundation and focus on innovation. Right, like, do some of those things together. But that's kind of my perspective is is I think it is not going away, but I think we need to be smart about it and make sure that we're really tackling the right problem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Agreed it's. It's kind of like getting a, a titanium and cool grip handled hammer, and being like take this and go build a sandcastle with it because it's the new tool that everybody's using.
Speaker 2:That's it right. Calm down everyone, let's make sure we're doing the right thing. You know, not saying that it's going away or that it isn't, isn't, shouldn't be part of the roadmap. Right, it might need to be, yeah, but let's make sure we're we're we're focused on the strategy and not just going to build it just because Right tool for the right problem. Yeah, I agree?
Speaker 1:All right, we've got just a few minutes left, so I want to give a nudge to our live listening audience to see if you all have any questions. Please feel free to drop them in the chat. I see that you guys have been having some conversations, so we love seeing that as well, while we're waiting to see if any other questions come through, karen, I would love for you to give us a quick snapshot of how you work to rebuild trust after, maybe, a failed digital product launch or initiative?
Speaker 2:You know, I think we talked about it a little bit. It's acknowledging what went wrong as a leader, with humility and transparency, and communicating openly to the team or to the executives or to whoever about what didn't go according to plan, and then spending time after the fact to focus on, you know, sort of that postmortem what are the lessons learned and how do we take concrete next steps to ensure that we improve the processes or deployment or whatever in the future? You know, how do we make sure we don't run into those same issues in the future? I think you just have to be honest and truthful.
Speaker 1:I love that. It also reminded me I'm such a quotes gal. I read a quote recently that was Nelson Mandela that I want to put in my seven year old's room because he's such a perfectionist. And we've talked about like failing fast and failing forward and all of that, but it was I never lose, I only win or learn something. And I was like I love that mentality. I kind of want to put it everywhere right now Because, again, all of the pressures that we have coming on us, as you know, at work, at home and life in general, it's just, you know, we've just really got to find a way to embrace that idea of it's not necessarily a failure, it's not a reason to stop and quit, it's a reason to learn something.
Speaker 2:So I love it.
Speaker 1:Great quote. It's a good one, Like I said I love a good quote, awesome, all right. Well, I didn't see any questions come through from our live listening audience. We've got like just a minute left, so we'll see if we can squeeze in this one last question what is one trust building exercise or practice that you wish you had known about early in your career?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is the. This is a whole personal reflection moment. I honestly think simplicity is learning how to listen first. You know, when you're coming into a new organization, a new team, new project, new initiative, whatever, we cannot assume that all of our past experiences are going to apply. I'm sure some of them will. That's why you're there, that's why you were brought to that project or that team. But we need to spend time, sometimes even months, meeting people, asking them about their day to day, trying to understand their goals, their challenges. You know, getting to know them personally, like we talked about before, all before coming in and trying to change the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that is hard when we instinctually, you know, and as someone who's been doing this for a while, I instinctually often know what to go fix, but I can't go in and fix it day one. I need to spend the time and the effort to truly understand the players, the people, the goals and objectives. So I think that's what I wish I had known early in my career. I think I've learned that through trial and error, quite honestly, and so that's what I would, that's what I would recommend.
Speaker 1:I love that because it is true. I think the take and I always loved being like the new kid on the block right and then being able to play that card of like well, I'm new here so I don't really know. Because you have to investigate and understand before you can start to make you know to advise, because I think you need to really prove that you've done your time in the research to know that you're speaking from a place of you know, understanding. Otherwise, you're just going to be keep bringing to the table things that you're going to be told we've done that. This is already happening.
Speaker 1:And so it looks kind of like you're just running around shooting off ideas without having taken the time to get the foundation down and understand what's there and what's being done currently. And it can be again. It can be a factor of breaking trust, because then you're like well, are you looking at the things, Are you reading the things, Are you doing the things? I think, being an investigator, when you come into those kinds of spaces and making recommendations for innovation and changes, I agree I've always tried to make sure I'm like done, my eyes cross my T's because I don't want to be like look, I have this great idea.
Speaker 1:And they're like yeah, we tried it and it failed and there's all kinds of documentation about it for you that we shared with you, but you didn't look at it.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh my bad. Yes, you didn't look at it. I was like, yes, yes, yes, and there will come a time where you can come in and make those recommendations. There will, it will come. It just might not be right away.
Speaker 1:You have to be patient for it, stay curious. Yeah for sure, wonderful. Well, karen, thank you so much. This is such a wonderful conversation. I hope all of you got as much out of it as we did. It was really great. Like again, as you're speaking, you're giving me so many thoughts and ideas and bringing back a lot of memories and things that we have to all work through and kind of just knowing that trust is a paramount factor in moving the needle forward in kind of all things business, life, you name it. You've given us some really great takeaways today, so thank you for that.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you, Amy. It's a pleasure to be here. I could talk about this for hours, so thank you for giving me some time today with you Absolutely, and we'll be talking more soon.
Speaker 1:Karen is going to be at our Columbus event talking about partnerships on January 22nd, so if you're listening and you're in the Columbus area, be sure to hop on over and check out that fantastic event. Along with our Cohatch partners, karen will be there with a couple other speakers, so excited to hear about how that goes. Karen, thank you so much for being here. Thank you again. All right, everyone. Hopefully you can join us next week. Until then, everyone, keep asking, keep giving and keep growing. We'll see you all later. Bye.
