Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share
Digital is a demanding and competitive field. And women are still grossly underpaid & underrepresented. But we are not powerless; we have each other. Together Digital Power Lounge is your place to hear authentic conversations from women in digital who have power to share. Listen and learn from our amazing guests along with host Amy Vaughan, Owner and Chief Empowerment Officer of Together Digital. Together Digital is a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital who choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. To learn more, visit www.togetherindigital.com.
Together Digital Power Lounge, Women in Digital with Power to Share
Your Enneagram & Money Matters
Welcome to this week's episode of The Power Lounge. In today's conversation, Amy Vaughan engages with Khara Croswaite Brindle, a financial therapist transforming our understanding of money through the lens of the Enneagram. Khara brings her expertise in psychology and finance to uncover how our personality types shape our financial habits. Throughout the discussion, Khara shares strategies for moving from scarcity to abundance, explores the impact of financial trauma, and offers actionable insights for anyone aiming to enhance their financial mindset. Whether you're well-versed in the Enneagram or exploring it for the first time, this episode provides valuable perspectives to help you rethink and manage your finances effectively.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT, is a licensed mental health and financial therapist based in Colorado. As a TEDx Speaker, author, and consultant, Khara specializes in assisting therapists and financial professionals in transforming challenges into opportunities through her consultations, courses, and supervision. Originally from the Pacific Northwest, she draws inspiration from outdoor walks and time spent near water. Outside of her professional endeavors, Khara enjoys spending quality time with her daughter, reading, and savoring gluten-free desserts with her family.
Chapters:
00:00 - Introductuion
02:20 - Revolutionizing Financial Mindsets
05:38 - "Exploring Financial Therapy Benefits"
06:42 - Financial Therapy: Merging Money and Mental Health
09:50 - Enneagram Nines' Financial Growth
12:30 - Understanding Enneagram for Better Relationships
18:27 - Money Scripts and Avoidance Beliefs
22:08 - Enneagram's Impact on Behavior Patterns
24:38 - Noble Poverty and Wealth Perception
26:46 - Balancing Workplace Help and Boundaries
30:55 - Stay Steady with Healthy Distractions
32:15 - Mind-Body Connection in Therapy
36:28 - "Overcoming Avoidance: Microdosing Exposure"
41:21 - Choosing a Financial Therapist
44:36 - Therapists: Creative Achievers and Money Views
47:51 - Encouraging Self-Spending Conflict
50:09 - "Aligning Spending with Joy"
52:21 - Defining "Enough" for Entrepreneurs
55:09 - "Disha Dyer: From College to White House"
56:20 - Outro
Quotes:
"Align with your Enneagram type to shift from scarcity to abundance."- Khara Croswaite Brindle
"Use your Enneagram type to transform your relationship with money."- Amy Vaughan
Key Takeaways:
Introduction to Enneagram
Debunking Financial Therapy
Unique Money Scripts
Relational Dynamics
Combat Noble Poverty
Financial Harmony and Joy
Embrace Financial Therapy
Call to Action:
Interested in exploring more about financial therapy or connecting with certified financial therapists, visit the Financial Therapy Association website and check out their directory athttps://financialtherapyassociation.org .
Discover more about your Enneagram type, visithttps://www.truity.com or thehttps://www.enneagraminstitute.com for assessments.
Connect with Khara Croswaite Brindle
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kharacroswaite/
Website:https://croswaitecounselingpllc.com/
Connect with the host Amy Vaughan:
LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/amypvaughan
Podcast: https://www.togetherindigital.com/podcast/
Learn more about Together Digital and consider joining the movement by vis
Hello everyone and welcome to our weekly power lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who choose to share their knowledge, power and connections. You can join the movement at togetherindigitalcom and today I am thrilled to welcome Kara.
Speaker 1:Kara Cosworth-Brindle is a financial therapist Such a cool, interesting approach and author, as we've been discussing before we hopped on here. Interesting approach and author, as we've been discussing before we hopped on here. Multi-author. We should actually clarify who is revolutionizing how we understand our relationship with money. As a licensed mental health professional, certified therapist, tedx speaker, kara is bringing her expertise into the intersection of psychology and finance to help people transform their financial mindset. She again, multi-author, but on her book Transforming the Enneagram Edits to Financial Freedom. Wait, that wasn't the right title, was it? That's the subtitle Right. We got it, though, and we'll include all the links to in the show notes for everybody as well, so you can check out all of Kara's books there. She's also the founder of Cost Weight Counseling and the co-founder of Financial Therapy Clinical Institute.
Speaker 1:Kara has dedicated her career to helping professionals navigate financial stress and increase their wealth consciousness. All this sounds amazing, kara, everybody here is very excited to meet you and what makes her approach I know I am and I'm speaking for everybody, my mixed carers approach particularly powerful is how she connects our personality patterns, specifically our Enneagram types. Listeners who are dedicated listeners, you know we love all things personal development here and Enneagram is totally our jam but how? Enneagram relates to our money habits. So today she's going to help us see these connections, understand them and share some practical strategies on shifting you from scarcity to abundance. So as we explore this awesome and fascinating world of money and therapy, kara will offer some insights that will transform not just how we manage our money but how we think about it. So join me in welcoming Kara to the Power Lounge. Welcome.
Speaker 2:Kara Yay, so excited. I love hearing now about the Enneagram, so I'm with my people.
Speaker 1:Yes, you absolutely are, and you know money. Money is a hard topic. We are an organization that supports women and female identifying folks, and you know a lot of us, women especially, have been conditioned to not talk about money, not seek money. So there's just like outside of all that societal conditioning, you being able to come in and help us get additional understanding about you know how we see money and what our relationship to money is through our Enneagram is just one more layer to help us really peel back and, like you said, shift from scarcity to abundance.
Speaker 1:So super excited to have you here with us, but I want to actually back it up, because it's like sometimes I write these questions midweek and then we come on the show and I'm like, oh, but we want to actually back it up, Um, cause it's like sometimes I write these questions midweek and then we come on the show and I'm like, oh, but we should have started there. So I'm actually going to be super cheeky and do this to you. Care. I'm going to ask you a different question than what I sent you earlier. I want you to kind of give everybody just like a quick 10 seconds snapshot in case they are not familiar yet, Cause I can't assume this that everybody's familiar with the Enneagram. But what is the Enneagram for those who aren't familiar?
Speaker 2:So we can enlighten them. It's called a personality test, but I feel like it's actually a personal growth and development personality test, so it's not like Myers-Briggs or the big five that people are very familiar with. It's really a lot of Enneagram coaches which my coauthor on this book is one of those she talks about it. It shows you what box you're in so you can climb out of it, versus putting people in a box.
Speaker 2:So it's not meant to like you know, keep you in a space, but that self-awareness then allows you to do something to change. So, in the case of money, maybe you change your habits or your behaviors around money with that awareness. So, enneagram, there's nine types. We're going to probably live there versus like there's a deeper dive into subtypes and countertypes and all sorts of cool stuff. It's probably not for this right now, but the nine types show up very differently with money, which is why we wanted to write this book.
Speaker 1:That is fantastic, really quickly before we move on to. For those who do want a deeper dive into understanding and exploring their Enneagram type, do you have some recommended resources or readings for that or sites?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's some that are free, like Truity has one, and there's like the Ennea app that people can download a free version, and then there's like $20 ones, like Enneagraminstitutecom. All of those have their pros and cons. Something we know now is that the assessments aren't really great for folks that are countertypes, because they don't really show up in any of the boxes. So like if you have someone here listening who's like oh my gosh, I've taken all those and I keep getting the wrong or different numbers, I would say to an Enneagram interview and so you're actually talking to an Enneagram coach. They have a set number of questions they're going to ask you about your life and it's going to be really insightful. So they say 60%, 66% accurate on the assessments.
Speaker 1:So if you do find yourself getting different answers in different places, go talk to an Enneagram coach. I highly agree with you and recommend that. I mistyped for the first few years that I knew of Enneagram Shock, surprise, awe, I was on Enneagram 9. We tend to see all sides, we tend to merge with the different types and so looking back I was like, oh, that's why I typed as a 1. I was at agencies and that was what was required of me oftentimes. As a one, I was at agencies and that was what was required of me oftentimes.
Speaker 1:Or three.
Speaker 1:You know which nines can present as three sometimes if we're kind of in that growth phase, state or phase.
Speaker 1:And then I also tested as a seven because I had four out of five people on my team that were sevens at one point and it wasn't until I worked with Denny Tato she's a past podcast guest as a Zit Enneagram coach and she was like, oh God, you are such a nine and her assessment was so amazing and thorough and helpful and the things that it does to kind of open your eyes to. It's not about even strengths and weaknesses, like you said with some other assessments. It's really helping you understand your deepest motivations that actually were instilled in you from childhood and then it really helps you understand like a lot of your behavior. So that leads so well into what you're doing. Right, you know, financial therapy is probably an interesting and or a new concept to some folks too. So I would love to kind of, you know, get some clarity for our listeners on that as well as how do you see that being different from traditional financial planning or traditional counseling? Like, help us kind of understand that new concept outside of Enneagrams even.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so for the certified financial therapists, there's about 120 of us in the US right now, so it is very new in the grand scheme of like psychology is so much older, financial planning is so much older, so financial therapy has been around since 2008 by name and like entity, and so those of us who are coming in, half of us are mental health professionals. So your question of like, okay, there's like the mental health side of it, and then half are financial planners. So you've got really interesting intersection of the two. And all the financial therapists are going to show up differently based on our background and our training and what we want to do.
Speaker 2:But the short definition of financial therapy is helping people have a healthy relationship with their money, and so that might be thoughts, feelings, behaviors, transforming those from that scarcity to abundance of people, like that phrase, but for so many people it's shame, anxiety, dread, avoidance. So that's where I like to show up as a mental health now financial therapist 15 years of mental health, four and a half years now in financial therapy found it in the pandemic because I was burning out again, but it's just so rewarding because there's still a lot of like the mental health aspect there. So to your question of like, why not a financial advisor or planner? We tend to be alongside them, or this person might not have a team of people that they're working with Financial advisor for a piece of their goal financial therapy for the emotions that are holding them back, blocking them from the goal and so we don't replace any of those folks. We tend to be like, collaborative with them, like supplemental to almost.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting and as you were speaking there I was like oh, money avoidance Enneagram nine I already see it, if anybody knows anything about the types. Yeah, it's almost easy. So I think you know I am kind of curious, though, like what, what sort of first inspired you to kind of explore that connection of the Enneagram and how it could help you understand your money, insights and habits.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, as a professional, I found it in 2012, when I, like, finished my program and was going into some trainings and was like, oh my gosh, they brought in a bunch of people and did interviews of benign types and they told us when you feel like you're getting kicked in the gut, that's probably your type. If it's obvious, which I know, your story is different and I felt that I felt nauseous, I felt like I wanted to hide. It feels like it's showing your shadow self or the side you don't want people to know or see. You kind of hide that down here, and so that was very telling. And then I found it personally in 2016, when I got married, because that was something we were doing together as a couple to like make sure we were on the right path, and I came back full circle. Now I'm teaching at the university level of like as an elective let's talk about the Enneagram on therapy so just couldn't learn about this forever.
Speaker 1:I love it. It makes so much sense Again, like that deeper understanding of yourself and your behaviors, whatever you can do to gain clarity on that. It is really amazing to see, like, how it starts to apply in all aspects of life. But I was wondering if you could sort of help us again continue to paint the picture for folks that all these concepts are really new to. Um, maybe talk us through how a couple of specific enneagram types might approach money differently. Um, perhaps maybe contrasting types that tend to have different financial mindsets, because this would be really good, like you said, even like, in a way, couples therapy.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, so relevant as to why we like have the conflict or clash happening. So, with your permission, amy, I'm going to start with nines, because that blending is so true with money. And so what happens with our Enneagram type nines? They're looking at the people around them and saying, whatever your goal is, I will go along with right. So the core belief is I'll go along to get along. And that does show up in money goals. So if we have a partner, our spouse is like let's go on this vacation, let's save this much money, let's do this thing.
Speaker 2:Nines, when they're in their more unhealthy side, might blend so much that they don't even know what their goal is with money. So part of their growth edge, as I call it, is like what would it be like to set your own money goal? What would it be like to achieve your own money goal? Like that might be the ultimate result that we're looking for with the financial therapy. Ask effective You're moving forward, you're doing something on your own.
Speaker 2:In contrast, I'll look at eights, which are right next to our nines in this little circle wheel of enneagram. For folks who don't know the image, our eights are very much about control. So when it comes to money, they want to control their money. They want to invest it the way they want to invest it. They want to spend it the way they want to spend it. They don't necessarily like to have people tell them what to do with their money, so that could be again a partner or spouse or a professional. So they're not usually the ones seeking help from financial entities or advisors, planners, whatnot.
Speaker 2:If they're coming to financial therapy, it's because they have a lot of big emotions about their money. Eights are more likely to have financial gatekeeping, which is a term I've come up with. That's not financial abuse, which feels really serious, but like the oh, I want to control this, so I will gatekeep how it shows up in the family. I'll make all the decisions they might partner with a nine to be like you don't want to do this. You actually feel like money causes conflict, so blend with me and I get my way and you're happy too. So those two even just like alongside each other looks so different with their money and how they handle it.
Speaker 1:Just as two examples. Absolutely, those are great examples. And Tanya, one of our live listeners, already has a question. I love it. Tanya, thank you so much for jumping right in Before we get too far away from this principle of Enneagram or anything like that. She's curious. You know what helps you dive into your clients versus a disc, for example? Or you mentioned Myers-Briggs as well, like you know, maybe more around like why Enneagram?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So because it's relational. I mean therapy is very much about a relationship. There's the therapeutic relationship, but also people come in to work on their relationships. So they might have like a test drive in the therapeutic relationship of I'm going to try this communication style with you as my therapist. Does that work? Did it blow up? Hopefully it ever blows up. But, like building that self-confidence, then take it back to a partner, spouse, family member, cowork-worker, whoever um with the enneagram, because it's showing us the box we're already in. It's that self-discovery that I think is very aligned with therapy.
Speaker 2:So people are wanting that. They really, truly want to know why do I do what I do? I know what I'm doing. I might be drinking, I might be making risks, taking risks, whatever it looks like I might be avoiding, but like the whole phrase of telling us why we do what we do is like the foundation of psychology. So to me it was like an easy connection Enneagram and therapy makes a lot of sense. I don't know if that's going to resonate with the person asking.
Speaker 1:No, I would definitely add to that too, being a big fan of Enneagram and having studied it. You know, not extensively but like, probably enough to be dangerous is like really it's about understanding your deep seated fears and motivations, which is why you don't always recognize the behavior patterns right away, because you're just responding from, like that habit of like internally, like how you internalize things. And I think knowing that about yourself, but then also understanding and knowing your partner's Enneagram type, is so helpful Because I think at the end of the day, day too, you have to realize and recognize, like we're all humans and we, but we all show up in the world and process the world differently and we see the world differently. And sometimes, when you can gain that clarity and understanding this is such a nine speaking right now right, if I could just understand everybody and see their perspective, then it makes it so much easier for me to have those hard conversations that somebody like me want to avoid, to say to, like you know my Enneagram seven partner, which he's not a seven, you know, hey, I know you want to do all the things and be everywhere always, and then you get massive FOMO but, like, at the end of the day. It's not helping us achieve our money goals because we're spending money on all these experiences versus saving. And then, you know, maybe I'm a six and I want to like mitigate risks.
Speaker 1:So even just acknowledging, like the difference between you two, I think, is just such a breakthrough way and because you're talking about, like you said earlier, your shadow self, which is that kind of a deep seated motivation and fears. Sometimes we see that as a bad thing. Don't get me wrong. I love Myers-Briggs and strength finders, but it is just focusing on those positive attributes and strengths. It's not talking about that shadow self. But I think that to me is what makes Enneagram so unique. It's less about not just how we're showing up outwardly but like what's going on inside, and I think that's for you for that reason. Those are the reasons why I think versus DIS disc or Myers-Briggs, why I think it aligns so much better.
Speaker 1:Beautifully said, yeah, awesome. And in your book you do explore some past experiences that shape relationship with money. I actually heard a term recently from somebody about poverty trauma and I was like what? That's a thing? I'm kind of curious. You know how would you define financial trauma? Because, like I said, that was a new term for me as of like two months ago, and what are some common ways that it manifests in your daily financial decisions?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, financial trauma is really like showing up in our community right now as like the buzzword. A couple of my financial therapy colleagues are writing books on the topic, so I'm going to be excited to see what they capture in their writing. But financial trauma I'm going to put on my therapist hat, my mental health therapist hat, for a minute which is trauma is whatever people say is traumatic, right. So, like as professionals, we don't look at our client and say that was trauma or that wasn't trauma. They tell us, and that's also true of financial trauma.
Speaker 2:So examples of financial trauma might be things like being denied a loan because of the color of your skin, surviving the Great Depression, going through a recession, but it also could be things like my parents fought about money constantly. So people think of these big T traumas is what we used to call them in mental health and now it's like big T. Little t is like. Any trauma based on what the client tells us is traumatic. So it could be fighting, it could be collection calls, it could be being evicted from your home, could be financial trauma. All of these things cause disruption and cause extreme pain for a lot of folks when they go through them, and so, although we're going to have people write books about financial trauma, I think for listeners it's like whatever you feel in your body and in your mind is traumatic could be an example of financial trauma.
Speaker 1:And acknowledgement. That's such a good point. I appreciate that so much. But you know, we talked a moment ago I'm gonna back up for just a second we talked a moment ago about you know partners and I kind of made it in the in the terms of like relational, like you know partnerships versus business partnerships. Do you counsel and work with business partnerships as well, with this whole money mindset kind of thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think there's value in that we talked about like work-wife, work-husband business partner. I've had people separate as business partners and it felt like a divorce is what they had shared with me.
Speaker 1:Oh, my gosh yeah.
Speaker 2:So like money comes into all of that. We also have a lot of narratives or like money beliefs that are negative, of like money is corrupt or money is bad, especially women that I work with, and so even thinking about that divorce as a business partner, it brings up some stuff of like money changes us money makes us angry with each other. Now we're scrabbling over money or whatever comes up right. There's some trauma there too.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I can see how it would really apply well to business partners. Yeah, Because if you have very different mindsets about money, like that, is that's what businesses come down to, right, Is that your bottom line, is how you exist, and so, yeah, I could see how that would definitely come into play. And you know, being able to find somebody, a financial counselor for you as a business with a business partner, is not a bad idea. You also mentioned in some of your books and writings about money, scripts in your in a lot of your work. I'm curious if you could explain what these are and how you know some of our listeners might be able to um, how they might be limiting someone without even realizing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, such loaded questions here, amy, I'm like I'm pulling them apart. Um, so, money scripts are the behaviors with money. So when you were asking about financial trauma, how does it show up in everyday life? It could be this like avoidance behavior we were talking about a moment ago. Um, it could be like anxiety in the sense of I'm not opening the bills, I'm not checking the bank account, I'm shutting down physically and emotionally when my partner tries to talk to me about money. I might be holding resentment when someone says let's split the check for dinner, right.
Speaker 2:So there's lots of like little behaviors that might be, attributed to financial trauma, but also to the topic at hand. So let's see where do I want to start with this. Break it down for me a little bit more where you want me to start.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so describe what money scripts are, cause you kind of explained, like the triggers and the kind of so maybe some of the behaviors. What is, what is this money script? And then, yeah, we'll start there, start there, got it. Thank you, I was like my brain is exploding. I know right.
Speaker 2:I feel you. Yeah. So money scripts that term is coined by Dr Brad Klontz, so those are his scripts, the first four, and by definition I find them pathologizingizing. So I want listeners to know that because even though two of the four sound a little bit better quote unquote they're not really something we want to aspire to, like show up in all the time. So money avoidance is one of the four scripts which has that behavior of like we talked about not opening mail, not checking accounts, like kind of the ostrich and head in the sand kind of feeling.
Speaker 2:The core belief of that person is we don't talk about money. So if you have a money belief from family or friends that reinforces that that's now super loud in your life. So probably right away. Money avoidance is not like hooray, sign me up for that script. It doesn't serve us in a healthy way and it could snowball into something pretty significant with debt. The second script would be money worship, which by definition is more money would make me happier. That's a belief this person might hold. So Dr Klontz has a whole quiz for the four scripts. But even just hearing these core beliefs maybe some of our listeners are like, oh, that's hitting home. So this person might have fixated when we had that study I think it was Stanford that said 75,000 a year makes you happy. And now it's gone up and up and up right, because this was like years ago. And so this person, behaviorally, will pursue new jobs, new opportunities, new promotions. They're most likely to have workaholism show up as part of it, which is a three. I feel that really hard. I agree I'm type three, but they also are generous with their money. So it's not just one way Like they're moving the goalposts. Maybe I want this much in retirement Okay, now I want to double that, I want to triple that. But they're also like let's go out to dinner, let's spend money on the family and friends, let's have experiences. So it's not the holding of the money, that's a different script.
Speaker 2:Third script is money status. We tend to see that one with like kind of the young adult population, but also based on like maybe I come from poverty and so the first time I'm making good money for myself, I want to show that to other people. So their core belief is I make good money, I want to show it. So that might be designer labels, nice car, nice house, keeping up with the Joneses, kind of thing. The exception would be someone who has, like, a physical disability. They might be like I want to show up in my nice clothes. That's the first thing someone notices before they notice my disability. So that's the exception to that one.
Speaker 2:And last but not least, is money vigilance, which I always lovingly say the financial professionals. This is where they live, this is like them. They're like I'm holding my money, I'm really good at saving money, I'm going to teach you how to save money. And so a lot of our financial advisors and planners show up in money vigilance In its worst form. It's like Scrooge McDuck or like Scrooge from Christmas Carol, like counting his coins and being mad anytime he has to spend them. So hoarding of money would be a behavior for them. The core belief is we don't spend money, we save it. So that's something for listeners to land in. So before negative scripts in my book, I was like cool, that's like where we start.
Speaker 1:But where are we going to go? Yeah, give me some hope here.
Speaker 2:My parents are like I don't think I like any of those. Now, my own personal light bulb is when I learned about the scripts. I looked at my parents and I was like, oh, this explains so much why I'm a serial entrepreneur, workaholic, perfectionist, because there's that in that. But the positive, or what I call healthy scripts that I want people to know about, I call money optimism, money harmony and money plentiful, and those are the three that people are starting to move towards in financial therapy like that balance of okay money is not controlling me.
Speaker 2:I'm in control of my money for example.
Speaker 1:I love it. That's great. I love frameworks and I love being able to kind of see. I'm kind of curious like what if you have people? What if you yourself identify with more than one script?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get that question a lot actually, and because we have parents and we have people who we might've been raised by, or a culture or society that models that for us, it's very possible that you'll type into two of them as your top two and then it will kind of fluctuate based on your health and stress response which, lo and behold, that's how the Enneagram is built In health you look one way and stress you look another, and so some people will be like, oh, here are my top two, or I'm kind of landsliding between the two, or pendulum swings, and same with the healthy script versus the unhealthy script. So, even as someone goes towards money harmony, which is like this flow, money comes, money goes, they can still landslide back or backslide into money vigilance when a life event happens, ie stock market stuff changing.
Speaker 1:That can make us go right back to an old pattern. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense, even just kind of, in thinking like cognitive behavioral therapy. Even so, just even being aware of, like, what your money script is, which is essentially what sounds like your money mindset, like, what are those limiting beliefs that you have about money, if you can identify those, hopefully you can recognize them so that you can begin to move into the more positive scripts but then acknowledge, yeah, we can begin to move into the more positive scripts, but then acknowledge, yeah, we're going to default back sometime and you're going to just regress because, life right, we have a lot of.
Speaker 1:You know, I mentioned earlier about Together Digital. We're a big network of women who work in digital marketing and creative fields where, you know, discussing compensation can be a little bit challenging, especially for our freelancers, contractors, those who provide their own marketing services, specifically at least what I see a lot of being talked about in our chat those who are looking for jobs. There's some pay transparency happening, thank goodness, but also who knows how long that's going to stick around. But, all that aside, what are some strategies that you would recommend for professionals who struggle with um sort of learning how to like ask for what they're worth, because it's such a challenge for you know, I'm going to say men and women even. Are women and men even?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah. So I think the first thing to talk about is there's this term that hits people in the gut, which is noble poverty. Noble poverty, and and women, compared to men, are more likely to suffer from noble poverty. So when we wrote about it, we had this bullet point list If you're a woman, if you're an Enneagram 2, if you work in nonprofits, if you're a therapist, a teacher and bam, bam bam.
Speaker 1:All the roles that women play and do.
Speaker 2:But my favorite bullet point from this was if you grew up with Disney movies, you might be more apt to noble poverty. You want to tell me why, Amy? What's coming to mind?
Speaker 1:Cinderella.
Speaker 2:That was right away. So like the people who have power, who have the money, might be conveyed as evil or corrupt in Disney right. So like we had this message again and again that was like, oh, money can't be trusted, money is bad. So, based on some of those messages, noble poverty is, by definition, putting yourself in financial distress to serve others. So women are more likely to do that as caregivers Any where I'm choose as helpers are more likely to do that. Nonprofits this is them to a T. And so to your question.
Speaker 2:I think even just like recognizing noble poverty and having language for that is part of the healing to say can I actually advocate for what I'm worth? Can I start to put a number to that Now? That being said, as a serial entrepreneur, I've also had to make peace that I can't always get paid what I'm worth, and so sometimes it's that cognitive reframe you mentioned earlier, like can I build other income streams? Do I have a side hustle? Is that even appropriate? But when you work for someone else, maybe it's just even rehearsing. How do I ask for this? There's a public speaker. She talks about 20 seconds of, like immense bravery. I think was the phrase 20 seconds of immense bravery. So when you say my rate is, you say nothing after. And women don't do this really well. I am also guilty of it where I'm like oh, but here's my sliding scale rate, here's my pro bono, here's my. Well, let's talk about it If that's too much.
Speaker 2:Take a damn pause.
Speaker 1:It is so hard, just say it and then just sit back and wait. It's such a good tip though, that's such good advice. And then I would say, really, just talking about money, the more you can get used to doing it. That's right, you know. I think that's why I mentioned pay transparency. It's such an important thing to kind of get us out of that. Also, being asked what you made in the past with a certain job I coach women I'm like don't, they cannot ask you that what your salary is is not determined on your last position and last role. It is on the existing role and opportunity. Don't fall into that. And I can't believe that to this day, women are still being asked that and answering that.
Speaker 1:And it's so funny he never listens anyway, that's fine.
Speaker 1:I was just saying the other day I was like I mentioned you all the time on the podcast.
Speaker 1:My husband and I am like he's never gone through like enneagram coaching, but I am like always been torn as to whether he's more of a five and a four two, and I know you're not supposed to type people, but I'm like watching the behaviors in that noble poverty.
Speaker 1:He was a professor for 13 years and you know it just in announcing his behaviors, even in the new workplace, like he is such a two, he's such a helper, and so now that I'm learning that it's more of like how do you have the healthy boundaries that you need to be having in the workplace to make sure that you're not sacrificing yourself, your sanity, your time? But it was really hard for him to, even though he was getting paid nothing. I think it was finally the thing recognizing that noble poverty kind of mindset that helped him, because he had been contracting for a startup and the startup had been begging him to come and work for them, and it wasn't the salary that they were potentially offering him, it was that he was going to pick up a pizza after work one day to bring home for us and notice that a manager at Domino's got paid 20 or $40,000 a year more than he did.
Speaker 2:Ooh, that's a reality check, whoa.
Speaker 1:You know, and so it is one of those things like I'm going to read up on that one more. That's such a great term and it's such a you're right. It does.
Speaker 2:It does a little bit of a punch in the gut, Cause it's like you recognize and realize that and it's like, yeah, I mindset and those that do you know, and there's got to be a balance, you know? Yeah, well, in academia, let's just call them out and throw some shade like they will absolutely reinforce noble poverty just like graduate school for master's level. Therapists reinforce noble poverty of you. Can't be a good helper and make good money like one or the other.
Speaker 1:It's like why not both exactly. Oh my gosh, if we could just get paid for what we do to help people, we'd be yeah, no problem.
Speaker 1:And then we would take that money and we would just go help more people. That's like it's crazy. Oh my goodness. Yeah, there's a whole lot we could unpack there, even. All right, let's get moving through the questions, though. Let's see. Oh, as a serial entrepreneur yourself you mentioned that earlier how has your understanding of financial psychology influenced your own business decisions, and what was a particular moment when your professional knowledge transformed your personal relationship with money? I'd love to hear a little bit more about your own personal stories.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when I found financial therapy in the pandemic, I interviewed a colleague and then within 24 hours I pitched to her to work under her and mentor and learn this craft for lack of a better word. And when I learned those money scripts, like I said, like I was calling my sister in tears like oh, this is why we're both serial entrepreneur workaholics, like look at mom, look at dad, look at what they model, look at our grandparents. So some folks do like what we call a money genogram, and it's just so powerful to like look at the jobs people have, the behaviors they have with money, the beliefs with money. The average human has 50 to 200 money beliefs. So this is like effort in itself to like just see them and kind of like call them out as they come up.
Speaker 2:So my own journey when I learned the four scripts, as already named, I was like, okay, and now what? Like I have money vigilance and I have money focus, cool, like those are the two that are probably ones people would aspire to have, versus avoidance and status, how I define them. But I was like now what? And so when I was doing this work with my clients and also still doing my own work. I was like, huh, money harmony, like I kept telling clients this is like a tide money comes in, money goes out, and for some that caused a lot of stress. But this image like really anchored me down.
Speaker 2:And then to like put language to it in a book and in the workshops I do, and things like that, I was like, oh, so for me, it was one day I was like, oh, I'm doing it, I'm in money harmony, like I saw like evidence that I was like letting it come and go and not having the anxiety that was there before and that felt really good. And I was like, how do I keep doing this, cause I'll still backslide into vigilance, cause we all do. But I'll still backslide into vigilance because we all do. But when I really noticed that I was actually in it, I was like, okay, this is not just pretty words, it can happen.
Speaker 1:Right, I love it. It's always good to hear people's personal experience and journey because, one, it's relatable and, two, it just makes you realize that it's not just you going through it. Right, you're not alone in all of this and you know you mentioned earlier, like fluctuations within the stock market, we have a lot of members that are being impacted by everything from changes and shifts in nonprofit dollars to tariffs and things like that. So, obviously, living in some pretty uncertain economic times, what advice would you give or have for those who are kind of managing that financial anxiety due to just periods of transition, instability, whatever you want to call it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so many thoughts. I think one is like they're hearing from everyone, whether they're a financial planner versus financial therapist is steady, stay steady. The urge is to panic and to pull and to move things and they're like stay steady. We've gone through this kind of uncertainty before. So from that anxiety not letting it drive which might then mean what's your healthy distraction Like? Are you taking a walk, petting your dog, playing music, dancing around your house, doing a primal scream, whatever you like like what's going to take that off of you so that it's not festering? Always kind of in motion? I don't like to sit still and so I wouldn't tell anyone here to sit still. So like what is the healthy movement that makes you feel like you're in control in your body? That's probably where I'd have people start is like healthy distraction. What could you do instead of you know, constantly scrolling through the news?
Speaker 1:or do all the things Right? Yeah, Because, again, like it is so hard. I remember I was sitting in the car one day with my, with my husband, and we were on our way to dinner with my in-laws and I'd had a particularly stressful day at work and I was just pissed at everybody and everything. And this was years and years and years ago. And he's like Amy, and he doesn't normally like cut me off, but he's like Amy, you cannot worry about the things that you can't control. And I just wanted to like back. What are you talking?
Speaker 2:about.
Speaker 1:You can't tell me that it took me like another year or two before it was finally like, of course yeah, of course he was right and again going through like therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy it's like what is the locus of control? You know what can? How can I take this energy? So, like when you start to feel that, like you said I love how you're talking about feeling in your body, cause it's so important that the combined body connection is so real it's not woo at all, but it really, once you start to know what anxiety feels like in your body, it gives you that momentary to pause, that momentary option to pause and be like, okay, well, what can I can control, and I am definitely with you Like finding a healthy distraction is the best thing that you could possibly do.
Speaker 1:And really looking at, like going back to those basic needs. So when you look at that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, like yeah, we aren't in self-actualization right now, we are in, like when it comes to money, it feels it is, it's, it's life for a lot of us. Right, we need to pay our bills, we have to have water, electricity, all these things, and so that can get really stressful. So it's like how can I just take care of my most basic needs. You know what's at the very bottom of that pyramid. Then I can start to take care of and you know self-actualization and hopefully all the other good stuff will come later. But you can't do that without starting at that base layer. That's right. So I love that advice. Thank you for that. For someone who is maybe just kind of this is all new to them. What is maybe one practical step that they could start with today to gain more awareness about their financial mindset?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean knowing that your audience is a lot of women. I think there's this practice of even having a money meeting, so even for listeners, just hearing me say money meeting, there might be this like oh no.
Speaker 2:I don't want to have a money meeting, especially because we associate money meetings with like mandatory, painful, shame inducing. Maybe we think taxes because we associate money meetings with like mandatory, painful, shame-inducing. Maybe we think taxes because we're right at that kind of season right now, Accounting, whatever it may be. But when I say money meeting, I want people to have a chance to recondition their body from that avoidance response to like neutral. I'm not looking for hearts and flowers. Money is awesome. That would be a big jump for people who are in avoidance as a script. But like, where can they incorporate their five senses? Can they have like fuzzy slippers on? Can they drink some warm tea? Can they have music on? Like what can make a money meeting feel more tolerable?
Speaker 2:And when I say money meeting, it might be like a five minute meeting, Like can you open that piece of mail you've been avoiding? Can you check your bank account? Can you confirm what you want to spend at the grocery store with your spouse? So for a lot of these folks, not just women, all people we're trying to just recondition the body to say this is safe, this is neutral, this is not fight or flight, which is where we are with avoidance. So make it less painful, You're more likely to do it, which then creates the better habit of like. Okay, now I need to talk about the vacation or the raise or whatever's going on, but start small five minutes, all five senses make it tolerable.
Speaker 1:I love it. Exposure therapy. I do, I know the things. Yep, yep, yep. We're talking the same language here. That's such great advice. And then, as far as like those money meetings, like, do you have any other advice on ways to approach that with like partners, whether it's business partner or life partner?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the money meeting. Then you might have it be collaborative of, like what's going to make this more tolerable for both of us? So I always talk about, like you schedule it or it doesn't happen. So it's not just like, oh, let's do it at the end of the day, please don't do that. Like you're both tired, you're both probably hungry, like this is not the time for a money meeting or a money date, as one of our grandmothers, the financial therapy, would say a money date. So maybe it's like, oh, are we doing this at a coffee shop, cause that feels like neutral ground. Are we doing this at the dining room table? If we have a dining room table, are we outside? Are we sitting in the car? Like what feels appropriate. Never in the years I've done this has someone been like I'm going to do this in my bedroom.
Speaker 2:Like please don't do that Lots of intimacy issues with that business partner also feels like wow, wow, boundary violation there, um, but like this, like mutual collaboration, like how do we make this tolerable habit bracketed so it's not like a forever meeting. It might be we're doing this for an hour and whatever we accomplish in the hour feels good and then we can always schedule another one. But if I'm like marathoning it for four hours with my business partner now, we both feel tapped out and depleted and it's not great. So like I think even just like expectation, what's on the agenda? Make it tolerable with five senses and like have an end and a start and an end time so it feels doable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. That's great advice. As somebody who probably falls into the avoider category, a lot I will say for those of you who do relate as well, I do feel like you know, one, being aware is always helpful, as we said earlier, but two, like kind of microdosing with it, like you said, is such exposure therapy, as we said earlier too. It's such a great way to approach it and what I have found if this helps any of you that are listening is that, you know, as I continue to do it, I actually find that, like my, I am holding less tension in my body when I actually do know the numbers you know, because it's like oh, like I don't have to worry because I know things are fine.
Speaker 1:Know and, like you said, that money harmony, money comes, money goes, is also like another thing. That kind of mindset is also been really, really nice. Um, because I definitely have like a scarcity mindset. My family grew up with not a lot of money, yeah, you know, and every penny was counted and savings were always a thing, but money was also never talked about. So I kind of got all four scripts I have to go through, but that's why I was like it feels like I kind of could fall into all of these camps again.
Speaker 1:Enneagram nine I relate to them all. But anyhow, I will say for those of you who are avoiders it's, it's, it's everything's scary the first time you know, and then after a while you kind of just become at second nature, and then now I actually get more nervous. If I don't know, I'm like, but wait, I don't know what's happening right now, I don't know what's going on, and so my mind can make up anything, whereas if I just take that time and be brave and kind of open up that envelope, I'm going to find, like you know, it can be solved. If it's, even if it's something bad, it can be solved. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, and for those avoiders who are like this, still like even just talking about the possibility of it is activating. Sometimes we go back to like what's the incentive then, like what do you get to do that's fun or pleasurable, after you do the hard thing? So it's like go get your favorite coffee, eat the food you like, see a friend. Like, for so many people they'll be like yeah, kara, this is like realistically, like I'm not going to do that if I don't have like a reward, I'm like all right, find a reward, like go back. Wow, I don't care, like whatever it is Like, but, like you said, like just getting started, like getting that momentum is what I think people are trying to find. Yeah, yeah, get that gold star.
Speaker 1:I love that, especially if you are a three or achiever type and, yeah, sometimes having that positive feedback is just so, it's just so nice. But to me, like I said, the knowing is almost better than the not knowing, and that's been one kind of big aha for me. I would say Live listeners, we've got a couple more questions left for Kara, but we would love it if you guys, if you have any other questions, don't be shy, especially if you have like a specific Enneagram type that you want us to touch on. While we have Kara here, I want to make sure that all of you feel seen and heard. That's why we have you here, to make sure that our listening audience gets the most out of each of our guests. Kara, guests, tara, before we move into the power round, I wanted to ask you, looking ahead, how do you see the field of financial therapy evolving and what excites you the most about the future of helping people with their relationships of money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'm hopeful that the words financial therapy will become like household known because, like some people are still like what is that? I've never heard that before, so I would like for it to be more commonplace, for people are like, yep, I know what it is, I know who those people are, I know what the purpose of financial therapy is. Just the word therapy and the name. I would hope people are like okay, this is like more of the feelings based work, the trauma based work, because it's therapeutic in nature. I'm excited to see more people coming into the field. Like I said, there's 120 of us certified. There's about 400 people doing the work and then seeing that grow would be great. Here in Colorado there's like six of us. So, like I actually feel like we're not saturated by any means, but like we look like the outlier compared to like one person in another state. So I'd love to see a financial therapist in every single state for folks that want the in-person support versus telehealth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. Yeah, I was going to say that is. That would be my next follow-up question is, like you know, I put the links to your books and then I will drop your website. Let's see all your projects and say we can include your website in the notes. But if somebody is looking for I'm going to throw this question in because we've got a little time and I don't see any questions in the chat yet. But, um, if somebody is looking for cause, like you know, I've been through the process too of, like, looking for a therapist, and it's not an easy thing, right, Cause you have to find the right fit. It's not just like you find somebody and you go with them. What are some things that folks are interested in exploring? This one, how do they connect with you? Um, and two, if they're considering a financial therapist, what should they be looking for? What kinds of questions should they be asking?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So right now I'm purposely working with therapists, because 70% of my industry is avoidant, like 70%.
Speaker 1:So I got lots of work to do I love it.
Speaker 2:I love working with that population. The Financial Therapy Association is who certifies all of us and they have a directory. So folks are like, where are the financial therapists? What are their specialties? Who do they serve? I've got colleagues who serve entrepreneurs and small business owners. I have folks who look at ADHD and money, which I think is fabulous. I've got folks who are working with couples. So there's lots of options in that directory of Financial Therapy Association.
Speaker 2:But when it comes to finding best fit, ask questions. You are there for the work. Like maybe even ask about, like, what's it look like to work with financial trauma? What do they do to help with safety? Are they mental health trained or are they financial planner side? Because I think that shows up differently of, like the person who's going to work with you, what would they do if it felt like you were dysregulated and going into a crisis mode? Like I think there's some questions the client should ask of like, how are you going to keep me safe? What's your approach? What's your training? Because I think that's natural. Like, interview your therapist. We all are okay with that. Like, if they're not okay with that, that's a red flag. Like, please tell, ask me how many years I've been in the field? Am I licensed or not? Like whatever would be helpful, but ask questions like whatever feels good to you to be like. This is going to help me make an informed choice.
Speaker 1:Please ask it, yeah, and don't be shy about it. Like you know, if you land with somebody and they're not ideal, it's just going to show you what you don't want, you know, and that's going to give you more clarity for when you go to look again. I'm kind of a fan of, like doctors and mental health, physical health, whatever it is. I'm like you know what Sometimes it works out. Sometimes you got to fire, you know if it's not right, if it's not a good fit. Like you, you need to find the right fit for you if you're going to find NC Progress. All right, julian was asking if we could kind of do a quick repeat on the recommendations for Enneagram tests.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Truity is one that's free. Enneagraminstitutecom has a $20 one. There's a place called Ennea app it's E-N-N-E-A-P-P. My colleague created that as an Enneagram coach. So there's a free version of that one and that one's just going to narrow you down to like your top three types. It's not going to say you're a one or you're a five. It's not that specific. And then there's like I don't know, there's probably dozens of them. There's so many in my head, yeah.
Speaker 1:I know I was gonna say I dropped the one for Trudy in there and then the Enneagram Institute site, so you can check that out as well as like download their app if you're interested. And I mean I will say that like from what I've heard from most of my folks, connections, friends that are in the Enneagram space, it's like you don't I mean Enneagram types or Enneagram coaches will be the most likely to help you get typed, but nobody should type anybody, right? That's kind of like the rule because you have to do a little bit of time and reflection, reading, discovery, like kind of it's. For me it was like really good to learn about all the types. And then, as I again worked with the Enneagram coach, then she brought me the clarity Cause. Then I was like I'm everywhere, I'm everyone. No, no, you are just seriously a nine. So, yeah, those are great, I love that.
Speaker 1:So I dropped those links in there as well. I also dropped the link and we'll again include those in the show notes for our listeners who aren't live with us right now the Financial Therapy Association. So you guys can check out that directory. Obviously, you can also reach out to Kara. I'll talk to her, but I love that therapists are referring you. That's fantastic. We have a couple more questions and we've got time, so we're going to hit on these. Elizabeth is curious about your take on four, wing three. We've got an Enneagram.
Speaker 2:As I say, like people, I want more Enneagram typing. Let's talk about them, the four wing three. So, by definition, fours are the individualist. For people who don't know the type four. So fours are very creative. They tend to be people who don't want surface level conversation. They hate small talk, they want to go deep. So a lot of therapists are fours because they're like let's talk about your trauma, let's look under the carpet and rah, let's go into it Deep dive.
Speaker 2:So a four wing three means that you're leaning towards that achiever side, which means as a four, you're probably pretty productive and very motivated to like achieve success, whatever that looks like personally and professionally for you.
Speaker 2:Threes want to be seen as successful, whereas fours want to be seen as unique, so those combined together could lead to like some really cool entrepreneurial projects, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Um, when it comes to money, you, our fours, are kind of a hot cult, which is no surprise because we've got like the self-prez four, which is anxious, versus like the social four, which is kind of out there with the herd.
Speaker 2:So when it comes to money, we've had some fours, when we interviewed them for this book that said I love money, I see it as opportunity, and so they had these like healthy beliefs with money, but on the flip side, we had people who thought it was corrupt and evil and like patriarchy and capitalism and all sorts of things. So, on a personal spending level, what was most interesting was people will invest in things that are unique and special and handmade and thoughtful as fours, and so that might also then translate to like success of like. I'm looking at this unique piece of jewelry that I've had custom made, or look at this piece of art that brings me a lot of joy and also shows success and wealth in some way. So those are some initial thoughts coming up for this listener who asked this question. But yeah, fours were like hot, cold versus some of our other types were like so easy to pinpoint, yeah, I could definitely see that.
Speaker 1:I could definitely see that because, again, like you said, that very highly individualized, individualistic mindset which honestly is kind of complimentary too If you think about it. If you're like ah boo, capitalism, then you don't buy a mass produced stuff, you buy like that individual kind of. I can see how it kind of meshes. Um, again such a nine, um, lydia, would love to hear from you some strategies for a type two and scarcity mindset.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, our twos. I love our twos. Twos come into my therapy as therapists very often. Fours, twos and nines are very common in the therapy space no surprise to any of you who've done therapy. So let's see For twos, the helper, the biggest growth edge for you is setting some goals for yourself so much of nine, but not spending money on other people, right.
Speaker 2:So from that need to be needed place that I want to be helpful place, twos tend to struggle with holding on to their money, so they might be a gift to people, donating it, giving it to causes, giving it to family members who ask for money if you have money. So some financial boundaries are important for a two. From that helpful place, again, noble poverty is a thing for twos, so being aware of that and creating some boundaries there would be helpful. But I think the strength of a two when it comes to money is they are thinking of others, so like they will be the one to like, rally behind a cause and support that. So not all of the things I talk about are negative, but I think most people are looking for, like, what's my growth edge? To improve and transform. So I just want to name that out loud for listeners. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to tell you all the things that no one wants to talk about, but you also all have strengths as your type.
Speaker 1:Yes exactly there's positives. It's so interesting too. Yeah, he's leaning more and more to all the time. My husband it's funny like the way that shows up in his money mindset is that you know, I will be like yo, I want to buy these really nice pair of shoes and I know our budget right now. So he's like no, spend it, it's fine, do it. Like he never hesitates to encourage me to spend or to spend on me.
Speaker 1:However, for himself, we went to get some bubble tea the other day and he was so mad because he did. He. It was a different place than he normally goes, but he got what he normally gets and it was just different. And he's like I just spent $7 on this bubble tea and I didn't even drink it and I'm like why are you beating yourself up? I said what would you tell me if it was me that had spent $7 on something that I didn't like, after all, you know? So I think also thinking about that and, like you know, he does kind of financially like reward himself for all the hard work that he does by kind of allowing himself to spend $7 on a bubble tea.
Speaker 2:But they didn't make it so yeah, it's a beautiful example of what we call in the book small spend Joyce, which is what I think twos are needing, much to what you just shared. So I know the question was like scarcity. Well, scarcity looks like lots of things, like scheduling clients on your off hours, putting people wherever they fit, not having a lunch, like. There's lots of signs of scarcity, especially if you work for yourself versus work for an employer. But the small spend joys might balance that out a little bit.
Speaker 2:So small spend joy, if we were to define it, is like something that brings joy that doesn't break the bank. So that might be Lego, that might be coffee, that might be bubble tea, that might be a pair of shoes, depending on, again, what your income level is and what feels good to you. So, regardless, what's anchored in for financial therapy is values based spending. So I'm not going to tell you to spend money on something that's not important to you. So, like I think, even for twos, to get clear on what is important to me as a human, not influenced by the people I'm helping, but like what do I actually enjoy? And then, all in, can I have a small spend joy, like once a month.
Speaker 1:so I'm not depriving myself of something that feels good. I love it. That's. I think that's such an important thing to kind of be aware of. I think, whatever type you are, there's probably a lot of that, especially if we are, you know, parents, caretakers it's everybody before ourselves and you know not that, again, self-care has to be something you're spending money on or an abundance of money on. But, yeah, just taking yourself out for a nice coffee and bringing a book along to just like chill and relax, like it's just such a big big way in such a small way to take care of yourself and show up for yourself. So it doesn't have to be anything extravagant, but it it really starts to add up.
Speaker 1:And I think that was an interesting thing too, because I kind of started to get into like this whole like emotions and money with another webinar guest a while, a few years back in the middle of the pandemic, and she said you know, I don't spend a lot of my time actually budgeting for people. I actually help them understand where do they find joy, value and purpose and where they're spending their money, not how much they're spending. And then what's wild is that once they kind of align, you know, they start to realize, oh, I'm actually spending a lot of money on certain transactional things that actually it's kind of like this, marie Kondo, of like your budget right, you're looking at all these things and you're like I'm spending money on this every month, every week, what have you, and it's not really bringing any value or joy or emotional reward to me. But if I was to shift the way I'm spending my money, they actually somehow end up spending less because they realize like again, I was going to mention hedonic adaptation before, earlier too, when you were talking about what was the other. It was one of the, it was one of the scripts. I think it was one of the the scripts. I think it was like the money status, money status and it's just like head out of head out like adaptation.
Speaker 1:If you're not familiar, friends is really that notion of you know, once you achieve a certain amount, you kind of reach this level of like excitement and there's like that little initial dopamine hit, but it's not serotonin. Serotonin is much longer lasting and actually through more experiences versus purchases, but it's like that little bit of high that you get right when you bought those shoes and now they're in the bag and they smell like all nice and new and you're gonna take them home and you're gonna wear them, but then by like that, literally that little bit of high lasts a day, you know. And then and then all of a sudden you see another pair of shoes and you're like, oh, like, those are way cooler. I like those even more, like it's like this whole thing of like there's just not enough.
Speaker 1:There's some really cool stories and research around it too, with, like people who've won the lottery, how their lives have completely been upheaved and upturned. Do you think that that money that they won would bring tremendous happiness and purpose and value to their lives? And it doesn't. It actually upends it and completely change their entire life not for the better, necessarily. So understanding hedonic adaptation and our kind of innate human desire to always want a little bit more it's why you see people who are super wealthy. It's like, is there ever enough money for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like what is enough. If you want to put entrepreneurs into a panic space, ask them what is enough and we all start to hyperventilate. But yeah, like small spend joys. I love that Marie Kondo kind of connection to it because, like, once people get clear on what's actually important to them, not what society says is important then we start to like shed the things that are society of like the FOMO oh, I have to have a nice car. Like what if I don't care about my car? I want it to work and get me to point A, to point B, but I want to spend my money on a vacation. So, even in couples I'm not a couples financial therapist, but I work closely with some and they're like, what's the shared financial goal here? Of like, can we find something we're aligned on? Sure, you want the designer bag, I want to spend the money on a vacation. Like, what's the shared thing that we can align with? Cause, like these might not change, we're just aware of them now.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's so helpful. Oh, my goodness, I hope you all are getting as much out of this as I am today. Let's get into our power round questions real quick. So these are our rapid fire question. You already kind of gave us an answer, I think, earlier what's your Enneagram type and how does it show up in your money habits, my friend?
Speaker 2:Oh, so I am a Enneagram, three wing, two social, so I'm a social subtype, which means that I like to be part of the herd. I want to be seen as successful and achieving, which is why I'm always working on some sort of project. My biggest growth edge with money is not investing all of my money in a project, not knowing if it's going to actually be sustainable, but I get a lot of joy out of doing it in the moment. So, noticing that and going closer to money harmony that's the script I want to continue to embody for myself.
Speaker 1:That's fantastic Name. One financial rule that you think people should break more people should break.
Speaker 2:It's more of a statement, which is don't believe everything you see on the internet and if it's extreme, either side, spend more, save more, try and find something in the middle.
Speaker 1:Love it. Great advice. What's the most transformative money mindset shift that you've personally either experienced or witnessed? I'll broaden it.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking of a client who said I asked her what do you want your future relationship with money to be? Which from CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, is the miracle question. And she wrote down a few things that she wanted as her homework. Between our sessions came back and said I've achieved half of them already. And I didn't even know it. And I was like, boom see, we just had to like conceptualize this is what this is it was so exciting she was on her way.
Speaker 1:That's such a great question too. Hopefully, hopefully, you'll write that down. All right, let's see my last one that I have for you is complete the sentence your relationship with money is healthiest when you when you see it as a tool to be used wisely.
Speaker 1:Love it. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, Kara, thank you so much. This is so fantastic. So many good insights on both Enneagram types, financial behaviors and how they can both work together to help you shift your money mindset. Your perspective, hopefully, has given us some new ways to think about. You know how we see and work with money if not, or it's like tip of the iceberg getting y'all started and on that path. So thank you so much for all of that.
Speaker 1:I'm excited for all of our listeners who are here with us still today and for those who catch us next week when this live post goes or when this podcast goes live. Next week's Power Lounge, we are going to be welcoming Disha Dyer. She's going to be sharing her journey from community college student to the White House. She was the social press secretary for the Obamas Truly remarkable, phenomenal woman. Our community read her book on diplomatic as our book for February, so we're excited to welcome her to the Power Lounge podcast. She's going to share how, through her experience, she was able to transform imposter syndrome into confidence and creating some pathways for diverse leadership.
Speaker 1:So, Kara, thanks one last time for being here with us today. We really appreciate you. Thank you Absolutely. All right, everyone. That's all we have for you this week. Hopefully we'll see you next week. Always check out our channels. We're on YouTube and then, anywhere and everywhere you stream podcasts, give us a follow, subscribe and, as always, you know, just keep asking, keep giving, keep growing. We're here for you if there's anything you need in the meantime. Thanks again, everyone. Bye.
Speaker 2:Produced by Heartcast Media.
