Lead Yourself & Own Your Career

Two sisters from rural Appalachia wrote the playbook they wish they had.

What does it actually take for a woman to lead herself forward when no one handed her a roadmap? That question sits at the heart of this conversation, and the answer is more honest, more practical, and more urgent than most career advice you have heard.

Self leadership is not a title you earn or a milestone you reach. It is a daily practice, and for women navigating careers that were not designed with them in mind, it may be the most important skill no one ever taught them. This episode of The Power Lounge is for every woman who has ever felt stuck, invisible, or like she was playing by rules she was never given.

Kelly Mooney is a three-time author, speaker, gender equity advocate, and founder of Equipt Women. She spent over two decades leading the nation's largest independent digital agency, became Chief Experience Officer of North America at IBM, and has served on three public company boards. Her sister and co-founder Katy Mooney is a certified leadership and performance coach whose clients include Walmart, Meta, and Lululemon. Together they are the co-authors of UP! The Playbook for Every Woman on the Rise, available June 2nd.

Key Takeaways

Self leadership has to come before everything else because when you change the way you think about yourself and what you want, every choice that follows becomes different.

Women often wait for permission to pursue something bigger, ask for more, or take up space. A big part of moving forward is writing yourself that permission slip.

Your career is a series of choices, and not choosing is also a choice. Recognizing that truth, even when the system is not working in your favor, is where your power starts coming back.

Visibility with senior leaders is not about politics. It is strategy. Research shows that for every sponsor advocating for you behind closed doors, your chances of promotion increase by 10 percent.

There is no one path and no one pace. Careers span 40 to 50 years, which means you cannot have your foot on the pedal all the time. The only shoulds that matter are the ones you decide for yourself.

Kelly Mooney said, "I want her to know that she has more power within her than she realizes to create the career and life she desires."

Host Amy Vaughn said, "Self leadership is not a title you earn. It is a practice that you choose."

Timestamps

00:00 Welcome to The Power Lounge

01:12 Introducing Kelly and Katy Mooney

02:43 Growing up as two of ten kids in rural Appalachia

05:05 The arc of UP and why self leadership comes first

07:59 What coaching reveals about women who feel stuck or invisible

09:31 Owning your choices even when the system is broken

15:18 Finding your fit. The four dimensions framework

21:57 Self leadership in the middle of a big transition

24:47 Tuning into head, heart, and gut as centers of intelligence

33:23 Getting in the game and the unwritten rules of the workplace

39:14 No shoulds. Staying on your own mat and practicing non-comparison

47:08 Power round. The hardest rule to learn and what moving up means now

52:31 Audience Q and A. Keeping entrepreneurial momentum while working a 9 to 5

Connect with Kelly and Katy

Book: https://equiptwomen.com/up

Website: https://equiptwomen.com

Newsletter: https://equiptwomen.com/get-equipt

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/equiptwoman

Together Digital: https://togetherindigital.com

Transcript

Audacity And The Power Of Choice

SPEAKER_02 0:00

There's a reluctance almost to say what they want. It's like there's a lack of audacity. Men, men don't lack audacity.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Some I think a lot of women do. Whether you're dead, dead ass, broke, stuck in a job that's going nowhere, or sick of your social life, you have choices. You might not feel like you do, but you do.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Growth and comfort cannot coexist.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

And I was like, oh, it sucks, but it's true. Why are women so like heads down and they're doing their work and they're really performing? And then one day they just get up and leave and they're pissed. For every sponsor you have, which is a senior person advocating for you behind closed doors, it increases your chances of being promoted by 10%.

Welcome And Meet Kelly And Katie

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Hello, everyone, and welcome to our weekly Power Lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn, and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who work in digital and choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. You can join the movement at TogetherIndigital.com. And today's conversation is one that I have genuinely been looking forward to because it's about something that every woman in this community needs permission to do, and that is to lead herself. I am joined today by Kelly Mooney and Katie Mooney, sisters and co-founders of Equipped Women and co-authors of a brand new book called UP, the Playbook for Every Woman on the Rise, which is available very soon, June 2nd. Kelly and Katie grew up as the eighth and ninth of 10 children in rural Appalachia, far from the center of power without a roadmap. They figured it out and um the hard way now, and they have written a book on all that they wish they had known. Kelly is a three-time author, speaker, gender equality advocate, and founder of Equipped Women. She spent over two decades leading the nation's largest independent digital agency, guiding Fortune 500 companies through digital transformation before becoming the chief experience officer of North America at IBM. And she has served on three public company boards and is the chairperson for Giving List Women. Katie is certified a certified leadership and performance coach, co-author of UP, and co-founder of and chief of learning officer at Equip Women. Her career spans law, brand strategy, marketing leadership, and coaching. With clients including Walmart, Meta, and Lulu Lemon, she's also designed a professional program for thousands of women to um from entry level to the C-suite. Up has already earned praise from Lucy Liu, Marie Furleo. Oh, I can talk. Marie Furileo, uh, the former CEO of Patagonia and the CFO of SpaceX, Google Chief Design Officer. And we can all see why. This playbook, this is a playbook that our community has been waiting for. Katie and Kelly, we're excited to have you all here. Welcome to the Power Lounge. Thanks, Amy. Happy to be here. Wonderful. And as always, we have some of our live listeners with us as well. I know we can't see you, but we would love to hear from you in the chat. Don't be shy. Say hi if you have a question for Kelly and Katie. We've got a lot to talk about today, but we always try to leave time for your questions. We want to encourage you to ask, ask, ask, ask. So if you have something that you are dying to know, let us know. All right. As I said earlier

Growing Up Without A Roadmap

SPEAKER_03 3:36

in your bio, both of you were two of 10 kids in rural Appalachia. So far from any traditional power centers, how did that origin shape the way that you think about what it means for a woman to lead herself forward? And I'll let whichever one of you wants to go first, jump, I think go first.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah, Amy, I mean, with our rural upbringing and being raised as part of a clan, that's how you have to think about it with a family that big. I actually consider myself a late bloomer. Like I didn't know a single woman in business growing up, not a single woman. So when I got my first job, that was the first time I was exposed to anyone in business. So the role models we had were all were homemakers. And um, we also, as a big family, didn't have any decision authority as you know, we didn't decide anything. It was decided for us. And I when I think about leading myself, the only thing I led myself to do um in high school was I decided I was gonna study industrial design, even though I knew nothing about the major. I didn't know a single person in it, I had no idea what job I would get, but I just knew that was what I was gonna do, and I did it. And it wasn't really until much later in life that the idea of self-leadership started to take root for me.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Yeah, I'll jump into like growing up in a big family, you have to be resourceful and self-sufficient. There's not a lot of hand holding and coddling going on. So we all had chores, jobs, responsibilities from a really young age, like around 10. I can remember getting my first paper out. Um, but there was also an unspoken expectation that we would all go to college and create bigger lives for ourselves, like leave the small town that we grew up in, even though our parents went to college and then returned. So, and very few people from our high school left town, left the town and went to college. And all of us did. So I think that upbringing taught me initiative, like nobody was gonna do it for me.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

I love it. Yeah, nobody's going to do it for you. That's big. That's a big realization to have. But also, like kudos to you all and to your parents for all of your kids going to college. That's incredible, especially 10

Why Self Leadership Comes First

SPEAKER_03 5:50

kids. All right, so let's talk a little bit about the upcoming book. Um, up it's organized around six parts. Lead yourself, own your choices, find your fit, think bigger, get in the game, and love your life along the way. Could you walk us through a little bit of that logic of the arc and why does self-leadership have to come first?

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Yeah, I think it's interesting that you're asking that and about the arc because the very first part that I wrote was called Own Your Choices. And that was submitted to publishers, and it was like the starting point until we really started to develop the rest of the book and write the rest of the book, and it became very clear that lead yourself had to be first, and it had to be first because really um when you change the way you think about yourself and what you want and what your needs, then your choices become different and how you view your choices becomes different. So you'll become more self-aware when you lead yourself, you'll become more intentional, and then everything follows from there. So all the choices that come next. And then find your fit had to come after that because if it's hard to actually perform in your role if you don't actually have a great fit. So there's a lot of dimensions, we'll talk about that later. And then thinking bigger was to follow. So if your fit is off, it's difficult to think bigger. So that needed to come next. And then really get in your in the game was purposely last because once you're clear about who you are, what you want, and you're thinking bigger and bolder, now you can get in the game and win and play to win. And so love your life along the way. I know you listed it last, and we originally listed it last too, and that's kind of the way we thought about it, except it started to feel like an end note. And the whole idea of love your life along the way is that you don't want to delay your personal life. You don't want to delay the gratification that comes from a personal life until someday in this unknown future. And so our editor had the idea of um making it not an end note or a final chapter, but really it's a thread. So you'll see it as a series of sidebars throughout the book of a reminder that your life is an important, integrated part. And so I thought it was a great um suggestion from our editor. So we, so we took it.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

I love it. The power of a good editor. I think like what you said as far as like the order and the arc and again, what feels instinctive sometimes it because you've lived the experience, isn't always as good for those who haven't come through the experience yet. And I think what you're saying too about the leading yourself, you know, it's you're getting into the wrong game potentially by not leading yourself first, right? Because you're trying to get into someone else's game, someone else's space, someone else's expertise, and this is not yours. So I think that makes all the sense in the world. Katie,

Feeling Stuck Starts With Silence

SPEAKER_03 8:50

I want to talk to you a little bit about you've done a lot of coaching for professional women who are everything from entry level to C-suite. A lot of women that I talk to as well, they feel stuck or invisible. And that can be a challenge. And I don't know if this like gladders back into kind of like one of those six parts of the book, but I was kind of curious as to what you've been able to identify as the real root cause that you almost always find kind of underneath that sense of I feel stuck, I feel invisible, because I feel like there's a lot of people in that space right now.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Yeah, I think you're right about that. Well, I mean, everyone's a little bit different, but there is one thing that is consistent in a lot of the women that I've been working with for the last, gosh, two decades. And that is like there's a reluctance almost to say what they want. It's like there's a lack of audacity. Men, men don't lack audacity. Some I think a lot of women do. And so women are waiting for permission to pursue something bigger, ask for more, take up space. So a big part of my coaching is helping women write themselves a permission slip. And that does tie back to a lot of the themes that are in the book. Um, first of all, having clarity and then speaking up is a chapter, um, get in the game is a whole part of the book. So there's a lot of themes that relate back to um just saying it and having the audacity to take up some space.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

I love it. And audacity is like to me, it's not a whim, right? It's a conscious choice. And it feels like a risk oftentimes. And I think, you know, in the book, you all talk about a bit of like reframing every aspect of your life as a series of choices that are within your control. And you even have that whole section that's like own your choices. And that sounds really empowering. Um, you know, obviously, but a lot of women, especially those who are maybe navigating systems that weren't built for them or don't have them in mind, it can also feel like a lot of pressure. How do you work to hold both of those truths at

Own Your Choices And Leave Comfort

SPEAKER_03 11:00

once?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Yeah, I mean, both of those things are true. The systems weren't designed for us, and um, the pressure feels real, and yet we need to persevere. And so I don't, I don't ever want to deny that. I mean, I think also the choices aren't always easy. We get into that, they're not always fair. Um, but there are choices. And I think the problem happens is when we basically say, I can't do anything because the system is unfair. I can't do anything because the system is broken. And so you have to make a move knowing that the system isn't necessarily working um in your favor all the time, but you can make a move to fight to fix it. And in my big um, you know, dreamy world, the what I really hope is that women actually persevere to fix it so that it gets better for everyone.

SPEAKER_04 11:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

And so the choices thing is really interesting. Amy, and I was looking at the um the book earlier this morning. Would it be okay if I just read a short piece from it? Because I think it really like demonstrates the message. So it says your life is a series of choices. Some are big, some are small, some are meaningless, and others are consequential. Whether you're dead, deadass, broke, stuck in a job that's going nowhere, or sick of your social life, you have choices. You might not feel like you do, but you do, and that's an eye-opening truth. And so it goes on to explain like 16 clusters, and I'll just read a few of them. You can choose to struggle, you can choose to figure it out on your own, or you can choose to ask for help. That's a cluster. You can choose to get more education, you can choose to keep doing what you're doing, you can choose to explore a new career opportunity, you can choose to scroll for hours on social media, you can choose to limit your time on social media, you can choose to delete your accounts, you can choose to believe that money will work itself out, you can choose to let somebody else handle your finances, you can choose to become financially savvy. So the it goes on and on and on, but it's there's a series of three that we are sharing very purposefully so that people can see that we do, in fact, have choices and not choosing is also a choice.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

A hundred percent. That is beautiful, and that's so true. Stuck is a choice, head in the sand, also a choice. It's just a matter of like what do you the risk versus the gain. Um, but yeah, and it's it is interesting how between being kind of complacent and or comfortable even, you know, is a choice, right? It's like something we seek out, but then I don't know, there's like that fine line between comfort and just complacent.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Amy, I like the line and I didn't create it, but I'm motivated by it is that when you're in your comfort zone, you're resting. And it's a really powerful thought because we should sometimes be in our comfort zone and we need that rest. But if we're always in our comfort zone, we're not growing. So that is what I would challenge people to think about is how often are you in your comfort zone?

SPEAKER_02 14:15

I was at a conference last week and uh somebody said growth and comfort cannot coexist. And I was like, oh, I was like, It sucks, but it's true. And I want to say too, when Kelly wrote that first um introduction for own your choices, I remember reading it and I just got the goo goosebumps. Yeah. Because it really spoke to me, even at this stage in my life. Um and and and it excited me and it made me very emotional. Because what I know for sure from coaching and just my own life is that when you have choices, your stress level goes down.

SPEAKER_04 14:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Because when you think you're in a corner and you have no choices, you you know, you it can feel suffocating, it can feel overwhelming. But when you take a different lens and all of a sudden you have more possibilities, more choices, then things, the temperature starts coming down, and that's where your power starts coming back. So I just love that that whole part of the book. I every time I read something, I'm like, oh, that's my favorite part, but um.

SPEAKER_03 15:25

Yeah, no, it's so good. It also reminds me, I used to do a still do a mindfulness workshop in one of my favorite quotes. I don't know if it's like truly straight out Buddhist or not, but it talks a lot about impermanence. And so whenever I'm going through a hard season, I love this quote. It's like the the bad news is nothing is forever. The good news is nothing is forever. So whenever I'm having to make a hard choice and I know that there will be fallout or consequences, you know, I really have the end goal in sight in mind, and it might be hard to kind of work through the mud, but on the other side, there's something good. And so that makes that choice more like tolerable because I know the fallout is not going to be forever.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

So yeah.

Find Your Fit Before You Quit

SPEAKER_03 16:10

Let's get into the section on finding your fit. You both you mentioned in that part that people don't assess fit. I want to dig into that a little bit because a lot of times they don't assess it and they just hope for the best. Um, for the women in our community who are grinding away in roles and cultures that clearly do not fit them, they're stuck, right? What's the first question that they should be asking themselves when it comes to fit?

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Well, I'll I'll start here. Uh uh I'm always coming at it from a coaching lens. And so I always say start with yourself because that's the one thing that you have 100% control over before assuming the role or the culture is the problem. Ask yourself, like, how am I showing up? Am I engaged? Am I performing well? And if not, why not? Sometimes the fit is wrong, but sometimes people have stopped performing, or maybe they're overwhelmed and they need support and they haven't asked for it. So the first thing is just be honest with yourself about how you're showing up and why.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah, I love that. And I this whole section is really important to me because you probably relate to this, Amy, too, as well as that employers have a lens for seeing talent and always thinking about what fits for them. And we realize that um individuals didn't have um a way or a framework to assess fit for themselves. And so we get into four dimensions. Katie mentioned one of them, like how am I showing up?

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

So I like to really, you know, say what's working and what can be strengthened. So Katie mentioned, you know, your yourself. You can show up with a better attitude, for example, your role. Maybe you're in the wrong role and you want to use more creative skills or strategic skills or technical skills. Um, it also could be the environment. Do you have the tools you need? Do you have the resources you need to do your job? Are you working the hours that are um compatible with your life? And I remember at Resource, we had a lot of people asking us for quiet space. So we created a dedicated conference room that could have no music, no noise, no talking, no whatever. So people could go and just think and write. And then the last is the organization. When you're really looking at the organization, is like, do I respect the leadership of this company? Do I align with at least some of the values? And can I activate on one of the values that align with me so that I'm finding more meaning in what I'm doing every day? So we get into it in a lot more detail, but that's some of the ways that I I would I would look at fit.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

That's a great framework and a way to think about it. It also kind of brings to mind to me from an employer standpoint that I've never thought about like turning on myself is that, you know, when you're working with an employee that maybe is struggling, um, a great mentor of mine once said it's always a skill, hill, or will issue. And as a former copywriter, I also just love that framework. So skills, I mean, those skills can be taught, right? So if they're struggling within a certain skill, like they're not doing it great. This maybe it's not a fit for them because the skill they're lacking, but you can skill up. Um, maybe it's a hill. And a hill is sometimes an unseen obstacle. It can be culture, it can be communication, it could be clarity of their roles and responsibilities. And he said, the one thing, and you can overcome a hill. Oh, hills can be overcome. He's like, if you can identify it, it can be overcome. The one thing is the will. If they just don't have the drive, the will, the desire to, like you said, how pay attention to how they show up, then that tells you a lot. And so even as an employee, I could definitely see myself looking at my current role and saying, okay, do I have the skills? Yeah. Knowing most women that are listening right now, they do, probably in spades. You know, hills, they probably got quite a few of them. Yeah. But like, is that is there a will? Like, is there a will to overcome, to take on those hills that will make this the right fit for them? Yes. Um, but I I love the framework you all created as well. That makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Well, the will also makes me think it's more of a culture fit. Um, they just if they it's to your point, if they don't want to be there, like you could do you could remove all the barriers and you could give them all the support. But if it if it's just not working, it's not working. That and it doesn't mean you're a bad person or they're a bad employer. It just might mean it's not a it's not a fit.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

Not compatible, right? It's like it's like any other relationship too. I always like equate everything about work and jobs and hiring and firing. It's they're all relationships and you need that open, honest transparency. And yeah, sometimes you're just not compatible. And that's like that's unfortunately, I think that that's reason enough, if not one of the biggest reasons, because like we said, deep down from a value standpoint, you're not going to get them to shift and you're not gonna, you're not gonna shift, right? So it's one of the things that we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

And we really argue in the book too, like you want to be clear about this because a lot of what happens. I had a a CEO of a major pizza company ask me one time, he goes, Why are women so like heads down and they're doing their work and they're really performing? And then one day they just get up and leave and they're pissed. And I had a lot of answer I had a lot of answers for him. But I think what I would encourage women to do is to actually not be heads down and to be really clear about where the fit is broken so that you can focus on strengthening it before you just bail to the next job. Because what happens is these things just repeat themselves. And so you're really just grinding it out, same issues in a different place without clarity about what you're actually trying to strengthen in your fit.

SPEAKER_03 21:41

That's a great advice. I wholeheartedly am behind that as well. Yeah, because you don't need to be running up against the same brick wall over and over again if it can be like changed brick by brick. And you, if you again, communication, if you don't communicate that, that's I think that's where quiet quitting comes from, right? Is because there's this misalignment, there's this lack of communication. Communication and you don't feel like you can make the statement or share the sentiment. And so yeah, you just work, work, work because we're all highly responsible, highly capable folks. And then the next day they're like, but I thought she loved her job. She did it and did it well and didn't complain or have anything to say. And then she's gone. That makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. But great question. I mean, I'm glad he's asking. At least he's seeing the pattern. The question is, what's he gonna do about it? All right, Kelly.

Leading Through Transitions Without Clarity

SPEAKER_03 22:30

So you have built and um exited a major agency, moved through IBM, founded equipped women, and have now written three books. What does self-leadership actually look like in the middle of a big transition when you don't have clarity yet? Because clearly you've made a lot of them.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Well, I think that clarity evolves and it takes time. And so, like when I left IBM, I literally had no idea what I was gonna do. I had no plan. And quite honestly, it was disorienting to go from a jam-packed calendar that was booked every 15 minutes, which you know I'm sure you relate to, to it being like wide open. And, you know, you have to ask, like, who am I now? And who am I next? And and so I really sat with that. I mean, um, Katie will Katie will laugh, but our dad always used to say, Well, you have to get quiet to hear the answers. And so, so that's really what I did. I really like just spent a lot of quiet time and tuned into my energy and where it could take me. And I even did an energy reading. I know that's very woo-woo. With a medium for the blue here. And she urged me to detach from an endpoint and a predetermined physical manifestation. And I thought that was so interesting coming out of the agency space where you're always very clear about the endpoint and you always know what you have to produce and deliver. And so I had to really like sit with that. I didn't know really, really what to do with that. I was unclear. And one of the things that I did is I wrote 100 thank you letters. I started to make a list of all the people, and some of them were senior to me, junior to me, peers to me, of people who impacted my career. And I was just grateful to have worked with. And I did that really just to put my gratitude into the universe and to see what would happen. And what was kind of cool is what came back were so many stories, so many stories of, you know, maybe how I impacted them or something I said had it um changed the way they were thinking. And and it really started to make me, then I was hearing their stories and it made me realize, like, oh, this is so energizing. I now want to help women navigate their careers and their lives and realize that work doesn't have to suck, and there's a lot of joy that can be found in all of it, and that you can, in fact, have a personal life too. And so I just started to get bits of clarity, and we talk about this in the book. You don't have to know exactly, you just have to follow your energy and and take aim in a direction and keep taking steps. And so it's eight years later, and it's manifested in ways I would have never in a million years imagined, and it's still evolving. And so I think leading yourself doesn't mean you have to have the answers as much as you're searching for um the insight into you're you're deepening your self-awareness so that you're you're moving towards something that's inspiring and exciting and empowering.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

I might add too, you might be listening to different parts of yourself. So um again, going back to coaching, um, I think of it as we have three centers of intelligence, head, heart, and body. And we all over-index on one of those. It's not a bad thing, it's just a pattern to watch. And we tend to be very head focused and try to think our way through. And so if you start listening to other parts of yourself, well, what does your heart really want? What is your gut telling you? And it might seem again woo-woo, but we're here for the woo. Um, you have and it might be very unfamiliar to a lot of people. They might try to tune into those centers and they might be like, I don't know, I don't know what it's saying. And that's okay. It's a practice to become more attuned to what all three parts of ourselves are saying.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

I love that. And I think this is always something that a soapbox I'm willing to jump on. Intuition, um, we call it woo, but it's deep knowledge within our body from a cellular standpoint. We know that trauma lives within our DNA and our cells. We know that the body keeps the score. Um, and there's so much work that our subconscious is doing. And you're right, I think being body, mind, heart, gut aware is so essential. And sometimes we do cast it off as woo, but there is absolute science behind having an understanding of your body and your intuition. Because even as we're talking to each other and listening to people, the way they look at us, their body language, our body language, all of it, there's so much information being exchanged that we're not even consciously aware of. And I think we diminish that, but I think it's honestly a superpower for sure. Um, another fun rabbit hole I've been going down lately is a human design, um, which is all about understanding your authority type and things like that. I'm sacral, and that's really helped me um guide me in a way that's more aligned. And, you know, for whatever reasons, if again, it's one of those things. That one, I don't know how much science is backing it, but I think if anything, it's putting me back more in touch with my gut and my intuition. Because I look back over my career, big agencies, small agencies, you know, billion-dollar clients, tiny little clients, a ton of like interpersonal things within the company. And I look back and I think, was my gut really ever wrong? And the answer is no.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

The answer is my business partner used to always say, whenever she stopped trusting her gut, things started to go sideways. And um, your your community who has children may appreciate that um you can also cultivate this in your kids. And I can remember my pediatrician um telling me, like, uh when I shared an example with my son when he was two, and he would just slam the door when he didn't want to play with a neighbor kid. And I was like, Oh, I'm so embarrassed and I don't know what to do. And she said, Kelly, he's developing instinct and you need to let that develop be. And I said, Yeah, but I don't want bad manners. And she said, That's different. And so she said, you can teach him to say, I don't feel like playing today, and that's okay, and we'll play later or another day. And he's not allowed to slam the door, he's not allowed to be mean. But if you force him to go play, now you're teaching him not to trust his instincts when he was really feeling not interested in doing that, and that maybe he felt afraid or at risk or something, which you know, he ended up getting his teeth bruised and knocked out and other things from this particular kid. So his instincts weren't that good, even though they would be were friends. And so I think it's really a great reminder that yeah, trusting your instincts and cultivating the instincts in our kids is really important.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

And some people who don't um tune into their instincts, I would be one of them for most of my life, they don't even know what that means. And but but interestingly, like I'm somebody who earlier in my life was very analytical and um kind of cerebral about decisions and also looking at the city. She was a former attorney. Um, and like getting all the opinions and like, well, what do what do I think? And but interestingly, like some of the biggest decisions I've made in my life have been instinctive. So um stopping being attorney, um, leaving Ohio, moving to California, leaving California or leaving San Francisco, moving to Santa Barbara. Um, I didn't have it all figured out at all. But I knew, like you were saying, like this deeper knowledge and wisdom, I could feel it, I could sense it. And it doesn't mean everything works out and it's all going to be perfect, but I could it was something I couldn't explain. I just knew.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

Yeah. I think too, it's like sometimes I think I've followed my gut and some chaos has ensued. But I think also for me, with this going back to this question, is that I kind of joke and say from kick from clear from chaos comes clarity. It is in those moments where I am being absolutely pressure tested, where all of a sudden, like everything in the world makes sense. As soon as I can take a moment and step out of the chaos and do what you're talking about, Kelly, where I'm just in the stillness, that's really where the answers are. But it's not in the constant stillness. It is the boat getting the hell rocked out of it. But as soon as I can have a minute to just look at the horizon and see what just happened, I'll be like, wow, I actually know something very important now. And there was a big price to pay to get it, but it was like worth the chaos to have that clarity.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

Yeah.

How To Build Trust In Instinct

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Claire's asking a question. If I if I could take a minute to respond to Kelly, you might have um different responses. So she's asking, what are the first few steps into finding the instinct inside of yourself? Stillness. And I would say, yes, stillness, and um and deep stillness. This might might not be 30 seconds, it might be five minutes or or longer, but also um look really tuning in and asking yourself the question, you know, and asking the different centers. So um, is moving to California the right thing for me? Um, and I might even touch my head, you know, what is my head, just to kind of um have a gesture towards it or a movement towards it, and I and I'll let my head answer it. And then I'll, and that's the easy part. Then I'll go to my heart and I might put my hands on my heart and I'm gonna have to sit with it. It might, it might take a minute, two minutes, and I might get it, I don't know. Um, and then I'll go to my gut and I'll ask the same question, but it's a practice that we're developing in ourselves. So if you don't get clarity right away, don't freak out. It's more about the practice of um attuning to the different centers and listening and and for a sense, it might be more like a felt sense.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

I love it. That's great advice. And thank you for asking the question, Claire. And I wholeheartedly agree with you, Katie. I think the reason why stillness works and is the best is because our our whole world is full of so much noise. You know, you're not gonna get clarity scrolling through Instagram. I'm sorry. You're not going to get answers from consulting every single friend, family member, which is what we tend to do. I mean, even a pros-cons list, you know, all you're doing is evaluating and in the thought in the head versus truly sitting in the silence and letting all the other noise fall away to be able to hear your true voice. I think that that's something a lot of us struggle with, right? Is like hearing our own honest opinion because a lot of us have been conditioned to constantly be considering everyone and everything else. And we will put all of that first. So it's like without that stillness, like, I don't know how you hear that.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

You know? Well, and we wrote this book um specifically to address what Claire is asking. So in all the different issues that we cover, there's very specific step-by-step actions to take, which you've seen, Amy. And then every chapter concludes with one simple think about it question. So it's a very thoughtful, reflective question, just one. And then another part that says make a move, and it's just one small thing you can do next. And so it the whole idea is to get people to be thoughtful and self-reflective, but then in move into action.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Yeah. Yeah. I love that practice. It reminds me a little bit of our ask and give exchange that we do within our community, whether it's online or in person. You know, you make the question, you state the ask, people give advice, and then we don't let you off the hook. We're like, okay, now what are you going to do with this advice? You know, where what's that next step? Um, and that accountability is sometimes hard, but you know, you should look to your friends to help you with that. All right, let's talk about getting in the game. Since

Sponsors Visibility And The Workplace Game

SPEAKER_03 34:40

we've talked to some of the other sections, and up you emphasize getting in the game and learning the unwritten rules of the workplace. For women in digital marketing advertising specifically, who often have the skills but feel like they're playing by their rules that maybe they were never taught. What is one unwritten rule that they need to know about right now?

SPEAKER_01 34:59

One unwritten rule is that you have to have visibility to senior leaders. You have to make this a priority. And it's not sucking up, it's being strategic about getting sponsors. Because if you've seen the recent research, McKinse came out with they say for every sponsor you have, which is a senior person advocating for you behind closed doors, it increases your chances of being promoted by 10%. So if you have four senior sponsors, your chances of being promoted has now been increased by 40%. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

That's incredible. I didn't know that statistic. And for the record, I didn't even know what a sponsor was when I was, you know, in my 30s and 40s. So um, and that kind of relates to how I would answer it. I the unwritten rule I want to underscore is that the workplace is a game. And I encourage women to get in it. Uh, I used to kind of complain to Kelly uh because when she was in Ohio and I was in California and I'd have uh some drama, I'd be telling her about what was going on at work, and I'd be so overwhelmed and frustrated, and she would say, Katie, it's work, it's not home. Um, and so for years, like I thought doing great work and outworking everyone was gonna be enough. And I was just so naive. You have to learn how the business works, you have to build relationships, you have to advocate yourself, and you have to make strategic moves to advance. Nobody's gonna like serve it up to you.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

That's both of those fantastic advice. Um, similar thing when I was doing some research for my book was about how, and it sucks to hear it, but women don't climb the ranks by leading projects or even necessarily having like full-on like relationships with senior leadership. It's definitely the sponsors, it's the it's the third-party referral. It's the people speaking our names and the rooms that we're not in are what give us the credibility and the opportunity by far, you know. And so that's just the reality of it. So to your point too, Katie, it's like how do you play that game?

SPEAKER_01 36:58

How do you make sure that inspiration's known? Because that's it. I can remember being in so many meetings and you know, at IBM, it was a huge company, and we had I don't know, maybe 800 people or so in our area we're responsible for it. So imagine each person's name is on a spreadsheet and you're going down and you're looking at whether they've checked all the boxes for promotion, but then somebody might weigh in and say, Oh, well, she just had another baby, so she now has two kids. She's not going to want to move to a new location and take on a bigger role. And I can remember going, Do we know that? And so my point with that example is your aspirations need to be known that you want to move up, that you want to advance, that you want more responsibility, that you're open to moving. Or quite honestly, if you're not, then that's okay too. But don't assume they know what your aspirations are.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

I live that exactly, Kelly. I had just come back from Matt Leave, but before I went, I helped win a bank, like one of the largest national banks, um, as a part of a pitch. And when I came back, I learned I wasn't going to be the assigned creative director on it. And the resource manager told me literally it was because she just assumed since I had a baby and they were on the West Coast, they're like, She's not gonna want to travel at all. And I said, Did you ever think to ask me that? Oh I killed myself on that pitch. And I loved the clients and they loved me, and I was just like, I was so devastated. So yeah, I that's great advice. You can't just assume, and you can't assume everyone knows either. So if you aren't clear about your intentions, your desires, your goals, the opportunities that you want to be considered for, it's just not gonna happen. It's just not gonna happen. And you have to be bold about it. I also remember I was a search copywriter at uh Team Detroit, which is now I think GBT or something else altogether. I don't know, these agencies changed names by the week. Um, and I was just kind of like getting through bulk sheets and writing SEO copy, and I really wanted the chance to do something more creative. And so I just got ballsy and during an agency presentation, I walked up to the guy that headed up affiliate marketing and was like, I want a chance to pitch ideas on your next campaign because they were doing all the partner, fun partner stuff. And he was like, Yeah, sure. Come along to the kickoff, I'll give you the brief and you guys can pitch. If something gets through, it gets through. If not, you tried. That's how I ended up within a year of working at an agency, like writing and directing my first TV spot that was for ESPN and Ford. I was like, it was so crazy. And it's literally just because I got the guts to get up and just go talk to the man and be like, hey, I want a shot at this, you know? I mean, all the kids can do is say no. Like I just want something more than SEO to work on because that was like nightmare city. All

Ditch The Shoulds And Stop Comparing

SPEAKER_03 39:48

right. So the next uh question I have for you is that the book is very intentional about saying there are no shoulds, no one path or pace, which I love that idea. It's important, I think, because we spend a lot of time comparing. In a community like ours where women are constantly benchmarking themselves against each other. How do you practice that in real life?

SPEAKER_02 40:08

I think your question is really uh important in the way that you phrase it because you said practice. And that's exactly what it is. Um so I've been doing yoga for a long time, and one of my favorite instructors in San Francisco used to say, stay on your own mat. So it's easy to look at the person next to you in a yoga class and think, oh, they're stronger, they're more flexible, oh, they they're more advanced. But maybe they've been practicing for 30 years and you just started, or maybe they're just super flexible. Um, but it really doesn't matter. Uh their body, their experience is their own. And the same is true in work and life. Like I'm on my own path, I'm having my own timeline, I have my own values, my own strengths, um, different circumstances. Um, I can definitely look at somebody next to me and admire and be inspired by someone. So you can look at somebody, but I actively practice not comparing myself to them. And it is a practice. Like sometimes I get hooked, and a lot of the people that I used to work with, they're now, I mean, I could count off 20 people that are CEOs, CMOs, um, big wigs and lots of major companies, and I'll see LinkedIn announcements, and a little piece of me, my ego, will like get a little bit hooked, and I have to practice, and I'll say, Katie, you chose a different path. Like you could have had that and you didn't want it. Um, so it's a practice.

SPEAKER_04 41:38

That's kind of a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

So, do you know how hard it is to write a book, a career book that's meant to help women advance and not use the word should? And even though we declared it at the onset, because I had a coach 20 plus years ago who really encouraged us to become aware of the word. And so that's what I would say to everybody is when you use the word or hear other people use the word, like stop in your tracks and then really ask what is it that I want or need, and not what other people want or need. And then you'll notice in the book we use words like can, might, consider, explore, will, like all these words that are very purposely chosen because everybody's path and pace is different. You know, I took a period of my life where I took four years and worked part-time. A lot of people don't even realize that because it wasn't really a thing. Like I worked four days, and my husband worked four days, and we wanted to do that to have more sense of family and learn how to be parents, quite honestly. And so we just stripped everything out of our lives. We didn't have cable or magazines or vacations or any of the things so that we could afford to do that. And that goes back to a choice. But um, my point being is then I decided, okay, after four years, now I'm ready to accelerate. And that was a completely different, you know, way for me to show up in the world. Like I want, I am gonna travel, I am gonna work longer. And I wanted to do that. It wasn't I should do it. And so I think that, and we get into this in the book too, like to help people realize like careers are gonna be like 50 years, and even if your career's 40 years, like, think about that. Like that's four or five decades, which means you can't have your foot on the pedal all the time. And also that careers take different shapes. And we identify like 10 shapes in the book, but there's probably many more. And the point in doing that is helping people realize like, oh, I don't have to do what somebody else is doing. I can create my own shape and I can go at my own pace. And I think, you know, with that time horizon in mind of a 40 or 50 year career. career, it helps you keep it in perspective, like to just like dial down the angst a little bit. Like, you know, I think we all have a little too much angst that we aren't doing more soon enough. And um I think there's a life is long. And um so that's what I would encourage people to just like chill out a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

Right? Take a breath, live your life. Oh god FOMO. And it's hard, right? And they say it often too, right? Comparison is a thief of joy. But I also will say a lot of times to people, especially women I'm coaching that, you know, also listen to your envy. Like it's it's telling you something, right? When you see that, you're like, I to me, instead of sitting there and getting jealous or resentful of another person or woman or whatever, I'll be like, what is it about what she's representing that I don't feel like I'm getting that I maybe need or I'll really think about it and be like, it's not really what I want or need. It's just I'm I'm admiring her, you know? Yeah. I think pausing and asking those kinds of questions is about what is it that I'm wanting from this that I'm not getting has really helped me kind of get over that comparison trap and out of the shoulds. You know, because as well too it's like is it maybe just because it looks good on paper, it sounds good and it looks good in a picture.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

And is it the ego like do you really want it? Because most things are not a zero sum game. If somebody else has something it doesn't mean that you can't have it too whether it's a job or a relationship or a house or whatever. So I think that I love what you're saying listen to the envy because is it is it ego or do you really want that? Yeah. And if you really want it then then take some steps to make that happen.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Exactly because I think sometimes too we're there's some sometimes I think there's shame behind wanting, right? So you'll see something that another woman's doing and you'll be like oh gosh she has this and that and then it's like okay well listen to my envy it's telling me what I want and it's sometimes that's a hard thing to come to grabs with. But it's like something that maybe you don't think you should want but you do want.

unknown 46:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Yeah. Well this is why what when working with a coach is so valuable I can remember one of the coaches I had who you know basically said I'm just gonna say it out loud I value money. And I remember that just stopping me in my tracks like am I allowed to value money? I think women were allowed to value money. And isn't that bad? And then like helping us all of us learn that it's you know for example in that instance money is a tool and you can want and you can be inspired by what other people have and instead of viewing it as envy view it as inspiration. And so when you start to reframe things then it feels very motivating.

SPEAKER_02 46:45

Agreed one thing I wanted to say to on this topic too is that we wrote the book um to help people explore what's right for them. I don't know what's right for you. I don't know what's right for Kelly I don't know what's right for my coaching clients I can tell you what I'm hearing in your your sharing with me I can hear I can tell you what I'm not hearing. I can um help you see new possibilities I can help you reflect um but I can't tell you what's right for you and by the way even if I did I don't live with those consequences so Kelly was really insistent on not being um dictating well this is the way to do it. Yes the whole thing is about helping raise um the reader's self-awareness and exploring what is right for them and then how to take action.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

Love it love it love it love it. Well I'm gonna I'm gonna finish off with this one last question and then we'll jump in. I know we started a few minutes late we'll jump in to do the power round questions as well but listening audience if you have other questions feel free to chime in. If a woman in our community picks up your book um this week or I guess next week technically um starting stuck stalled spinning or soaring what is the one thing that you want her to walk away with knowing that she didn't know before she opened that book I want her to know that she has more power within her than she realizes to create the career in life she desires I hope women walk away seeing more possibilities for themselves and more and experiencing more clarity on how to act on those possibilities love it love it love it especially the action part right nothing happens otherwise all right let's go into our power round questions real quick I took a quick chat la peek at the chat and it's it's quiet right now but if you guys have any questions jump

Power Round On Champions And Networks

SPEAKER_03 48:39

in. You wrote the playbook that you wish you'd had I know that you guys led with that. What is one rule um in that um that took you the longest to learn for yourself? Like what was the hardest one for you all?

SPEAKER_02 48:54

Well cultivate champions there's a whole chapter on that and I was saying earlier I didn't even know sponsors existed and that you needed them. So I was so naive for years and thought doing great work was enough and I underestimated how much you need mentors, sponsors, advocates in general because they really become your PR team.

unknown 49:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Yeah I would say related and build your network and I was clueless about this until probably my mid to late 30s and I ended up hiring a head of business development who was amazing. And quite honestly she just taught me the ropes and I can remember thinking how would I get this far 15 years into my career and it never occurred to me to build my network or how to do that. And so we create a bunch of tools to help make it easy for people but I think that that's a the one that took me the longest to even be tuned into.

SPEAKER_04 49:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

I agree. Well that's totally what's led to the inspiration for the thing I've been working on which is closing the networking gap for women because it is like that expedited path in the sense that people don't realize the power of it because then what's wonderful about your network network as you build it is it becomes your community, it becomes your safe space, it becomes your sponsors, your supporters, your champions and what's amazing is your reputation precedes you like you don't have to try to sell yourself. Everybody knows that referrals are the way to go. And instead you just end up having all these people constantly wonderful aligned people coming your way because of referrals and it's just such a good way to go. So yeah I think that there's so much reason to get behind you know sponsors, champions and building your network it's huge. It's going to help you go far. All right I'm gonna have each of you take a turn and filling in the blank the biggest thing standing between most women and their career the career that they want is blank.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

Uh saying what they want out loud and then saying it again to people who can help them.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Love it. What about you Kelly?

SPEAKER_03 50:53

I would say the act of thinking bigger love it I would throw one in and say yourself I feel like that's the case with a lot of things in my life I'm like what's the biggest obstacle here? Me.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

All right Kelly what is one thing that Katie taught you about leadership ah well I mean Katie's taught hundreds of courses to thousands of professionals and she has a great way of making them feel seen and acknowledging their contributions and their engagement and you know making um material and accessible and actionable to others and you know just showing up in a very uh constructive and positive way. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

Flip side all right your turn Katie what is coming on this won't be surprising at listening to Kelly talk in this conversation and knowing that she's written three books and achieved all the things that she has achieved but she's incredibly tenacious. So if something doesn't work she does not give up I don't know if this is coming from her training as a designer but she will rethink a problem adjust her approach and keep going and she doesn't get caught up in her ego that it didn't work. She'll just try something else. And she has remarkable endurance so I've seen both of these qualities um over and over in her career and her life.

SPEAKER_03 52:21

I love it. That's fantastic. All right up lunches on July 2nd what does moving up mean to each of you right now personally I think a lot of women will relate to this so for me up is becoming more comfortable using my voice more publicly so self-promotion is not a natural thing for me.

SPEAKER_02 52:42

It's not something I really enjoy but I know that if you want to help people visibility matters. So that's what I'm focusing on.

SPEAKER_01 52:50

So speaking up is um and standing up is for Katie and you'll see in the book we talk about up means so many things. But for me it really means moving up and impact. I mean I set out this crazy goal as um Jim Collins used to call it a big hairy audacious goal the B Hag B Hag um is to impact the uh trajectory the career trajectories of um one million women so um we got a lot of work to do but you're on the right track and you're definitely

Keeping A Side Hustle Alive

SPEAKER_01 53:24

getting there.

SPEAKER_03 53:24

All right if you guys don't mind me hanging for just a minute I did see one question come through. Of course so money being a driver is very real we all know that having to go back to the workforce due to slowness when having the momentum of entrepreneuring in the last year and helping others out what is one way to reflect and not lose that momentum while getting back to a nine to five one of our listeners is asking so the not losing the momentum for just for the entrepreneurship is what I believe.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Like so it's kind of like you've got that side hustle and now you're making that side hustle a thing but then because money the need for stability etc and Claire you can jump in and tell me if I'm wrong or not but then it's like how do you keep that momentum of um the entrepreneuring while possibly having to do the nine to five as well yeah so basically whole having two things that are demanding your time and your energy and I mean this is it if the if the goal is for the side hustle to become the real thing, then I would advise taking a job that might be slightly less than what you can really do and in its fullest sense. So if you're really you know a director in a company maybe the senior manager is the job you do for a while. I mean we had people do that when they were getting their full-time MBA it's like okay I used to be in charge of all these things and now I'm gonna be have a smaller scope. So that's kind of one of the ways I mean the other thing is you don't always have to overdeliver. So if your real passion is the side hustle you don't have to overdeliver in your primary job. Now every employer wants to you know not hear me say that but um but also um that's kind of the reality if you're not if your goal isn't to move up in that organization. If your goal is to move up into that organization then you need to figure out how this the side hustle is not interfering with that. And so you're only doing that in evenings or you're only doing that on weekends. And and so you have to decide what your goal is at the end of the day. Which one are you trying to excel in and then find ways of of giving that more of your um time and attention. Katie what would you say?

SPEAKER_02 55:41

I'd say it it sounds to me through the question that the side hustle is more the passion. And so to keep the momentum that the person she's already achieved I would say it's about consistency. So whether it's 15 minutes a day or um an hour every Wednesday like I would put it in your calendar of time that you're going to devote to the side hustle. And I would also for me what I've learned about myself is when is my best thinking time? When am I at my best? And I'm at my best for like heavy thinking in the morning. And so if it depending on what task is required I would try to dedicate time and put it in your calendar so that um you see it and it's it remains a priority and then you it's it's and so it's going to be the consistency of maintaining the momentum.

SPEAKER_03 56:36

I love it. Both of those pieces all of that is such good advice I met a guy once who um we were both in the same um grant awarded group um for Main Street ventures and he literally launched his company while working at PNG and um his job was like he's like my job was easy for me it was simple I kept to the nine to five I did it well I did it well enough but then this was my passion. And I just again talking about audacity I think sometimes we struggle with that as women we have to like overdeliver at work and give 110% all the time but even our 90% is most people's 100% so I that's such great advice and I've actually never heard anybody just say it out loud. So all right ladies we are at time sadly although we could keep talking forever I feel like um thank you both so much this is the conversation um and the tools that our community definitely runs on um it's a reminder that self-leadership isn't a title you earn it's a practice that you choose that clarity comes before confidence um that there's no one path no one pace the only shoulds that matter is the one that you decide for yourself. I love that portion of talking about the shoulds and the the choices up is a playbook for every woman on the rise. It's available June 2nd as I shared and honestly you all should just go pre-order it now. This is the book you buy for yourself and then immediately buy for every woman that you care about. And it's got actionable elements to it which we always need to put in the practice right because this is for us. No one's going to do it for us. No one's coming to save us nobody's coming with the golden ticket. We've got to do it for ourselves. So you can find Kelly and Katie on equippedwomen.com and be sure to subscribe to Kelly's Get Equipped newsletter for weekly career insights that are always hit different. And if you're not yet a part of our community with Together Digital come find us again together in digital.com whether you're starting stuck stalled or soaring there's a seat for the at this table always for all of you. Until next time everyone keep asking keep giving and keep growing we'll see you soon bye bye produced by Heartcast Media