The Art of Acceptance

What happens when a digital strategist stops fighting reality and starts leading from it.

There are conversations that feel like a strategy session and a therapy session at the same time. This one was both. Mary Brodie came into the Power Lounge and did something rare. She made acceptance sound like the most powerful leadership move you can make.

If you work in digital, lead a team, or run your own business, you know the pressure to chase the aspirational audience, the perfect product, the frictionless experience. Mary has spent over 20 years helping companies stop chasing and start seeing. And what she has found is that the women in digital who thrive are the ones who learn to work with what is, not just what they wish were true.

Mary Brodie is the Founder and Digital Experience Strategist at Gearmark, a consultancy she has built over two decades across apps, websites, content strategy, lead generation, and full digital experience design. She holds a BA and MA from Simmons College, a certificate from MIT, and an Executive Master's in Corporate Communications from IE University in Madrid. She is currently pursuing her doctorate at Case Western Reserve University, where her research explores how B2B buying teams build relationships with supplier salespeople.

Key Takeaways

Acceptance is not passive. It is the foundation of every smart business decision, from knowing your real customers to building a team that actually trusts each other.

Your digital experience reflects your internal experience. If your employees are disengaged, that bleeds into every customer touchpoint, every chatbot, every support call.

Women in digital and female entrepreneurs online often chase aspirational audiences instead of maximizing the ones they already have. The brands that win know exactly who their customer is and own it.

AI is a tool, not a replacement. Using it well means knowing what question you are actually trying to answer and what data you are feeding it.

The most underrated skill in women leadership and digital marketing for women is listening. Not the performative kind. The kind where you feel something shift in the room.

Mary Brodie said, "Accept yourself and make sure that you're happy with what you're doing and what your output is. Not your perfect foot. Your best foot."

Mary Brodie said, "Once you accept that we don't all share the same values, the world becomes a very different place. And it's not a scary place. It's just a different place. And a lot of the world becomes a lot clearer."

Timestamps

00:00 Welcome to the Power Lounge.

01:51 Twenty years of entrepreneurship. What keeps Mary going.

04:26 Why Mary kept going back to school, MIT, Simmons, Madrid.

07:37 Being the only American in the room. What that taught her.

09:41 Customer experience and employee experience are the same problem.

13:10 How to know if your company actually has a digital experience.

16:33 AI and digital strategy. Tool or replacement.

21:00 What gets in the way of leaders communicating their vision clearly.

26:54 What a broken internal experience is costing your organization right now.

31:08 The Art of Acceptance. What it means as a leadership practice.

40:04 What Mary looks for before any strategy or deliverable.

41:19 One shift for every woman in the audience.

42:37 Power Round. Rapid fire with Mary Brodie.

Connect with Mary Brodie

Email: mfbrodie@gearmark.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marybrodie

Website: gearmark.com

Transcript

Why Entrepreneurship Feels Like Quitting

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Almost every day. Hello, entrepreneurship. Um, there's always something, and there's always um, I'd say I'd say there there are moments where I do wonder like, what am I doing and why? I get disturbed hearing how AI becomes people's friends. That's not what it is. Companies forget that we're that companies are made of people, right? Customers are people, your employees are people. And um without customers, the lights don't stay on. I walk around perpetually confused all day. I swear. Everyone, I go into meetings and I just go, I don't understand, or I'm confused. And I swear everyone's wonders, how does she exist? I think a challenging line we've been we've been fed is like the idea that the world works for you. And I found it light, it lightened my load to let that go.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Hello everyone, and welcome to our weekly power lounge. This is your place to hear authentic conversations from those who have power to share. My name is Amy Vaughn, and I am the owner and chief empowerment officer of Together Digital, a diverse and collaborative community of women who choose to share their knowledge, power, and connections. You can join the movement at TogetherIndigital.com. Here's what I love about today's guest. She has built something that has lasted more than two decades, and she did it by paying attention to the things that most people overlook. Mary Brodie is the founder and digital experience strategist at GearMark, a consultancy where she has grown for over 20 years across apps, websites, content strategies, lead generation, and full digital experience design. But what sets Mary apart most is that she doesn't just care about the customer experience. She works just as hard on what's happening inside of organizations. She partners with leaders to help them get clear on their vision, communicate to their teams, and build the kind of collaboration that actually sticks. Mary studied at MIT, holds a BA and A and MA from Simons College, and has earned an executive master's in corporate communications from IE University in Madrid. And if that wasn't enough, she is currently pursuing her doctorate. Holla hala, yay for research approval today. Big news. We'll chat about that at Case Western Reserve University, where she uh her research explores how B2B buying teams build relationships with supplier people, salespeople, which tells you everything about how deeply she thinks about the human dynamic behind business decisions. She brings serious intellectual rigor to deeply human work, which is what we love. And today she's about to bring both into the conversation about acceptance, listening, and finding it more easy in work in life. Mary, welcome to the Power Lounge.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Thank you, Amy. It's awesome to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

All right, Mary, you have spent 20 plus years building one thing that is increasingly rare. What was the moment or the season in which you almost didn't keep going? And what did you tell yourself that made the difference?

SPEAKER_02 3:11

So um, I'll be honest, almost every day. Hello, entrepreneurship. Um, there's always something, and there's always um, I'd say, I'd say there there are moments where I do wonder like, what am I doing and why? And usually what brings me back is um is my clients and watching what they're um what they're achieving and what they're able and how they're able to engage with their customers better, or we we are able to have a breakthrough in some way. Um I'd say that's really what keeps me what keeps me going and keeps me working on what I'm working on.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Um and keeps me driven. But it's every day. Every day. No, it's so true. I think I joke oftentimes and say like entrepreneurship and running your own business is kind of like a marriage. It's like a choice every day. You wake up and you're like, I I could just quit. I could just quit. But no, like you choose to keep showing up, you choose to get keep going. Or like my friend Crystal, who owns two businesses, often says, I just quit every day. And then I decide to come back and rehire myself.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

You know, what what I think we don't realize is that you could go off and work for someone else, but then you look at how they're controlling, and this is the way I saw it, and this is why I started going off on my own, right? Um, they're controlling your employment, right? And they're making that decision. And in today's world, um the reasons why you can be let go are can be trivial almost. Oh, absolutely. Um, so at least you have more control over your life and where you're going with it. Um, and I think one of the things too that I enjoy um being on on being like in my own business is um I know that my clients have other choices and why they're choosing me, if that makes sense. Um, so every day is almost like when some when people who work in companies will tell me, like, oh, well, what about a performance review? I'm like, that's every day. Yeah. Because they could choose someone else, right? They don't have to come back. Even mid-project, they could say, We've had enough of you. Um, but they don't, right? And they stick around for actually um in some cases with clients a

Education As A Strategy Tool

SPEAKER_02 5:30

long, long time.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

So that's great. That's fantastic. Another thing that you share in common with a lot of our community is that continued education and constant learning mindset, which I think is fantastic. And you've clearly, as I read before, you know, have invested a lot in your education across the stretch of your career, whether it was MIT, Simmons, and then the master's in Madrid, not your PhD. What is it that you're searching for each time you go back to further educate yourself?

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Yeah, so um I first got the master's because I originally wanted to be an academic. And um, I couldn't determine what I wanted to focus on for a PhD at the time. And my advisor said to me, you need to get a job. And after the shock of like, I gotta get a job, right? I have to feel in the real world. Oh my God, right? So scary. Um but you know, I didn't realize at the time, because uh at the time a lot of people told me, like, oh, a master's in English, it's what can you do with that? And I have to say, I use it every day. Oh yeah. Like what, you know, we're told that the world is based on, you know, the and yes, it is, it's bottom line and numbers and all that, but stories and storytelling. And that's where I kind of see um what a master's of English can do for you, right? And I went back for the degree um at IE University, um, mainly because what I noticed in my in my work was when you start working on like social media campaigns, those are communication campaigns, and especially in the world of technology, um a lot of people learned as they went along at work, which is great, and to be self-trained, but at the same time, there are certain gaps. And I realized that's why I went back to school, so I can get that more complete training of how should this really work. And also understanding that we we are, and it kind of leads to like how where we are today with um with AI, right? And conversational UI. Um at the time I started realizing like, hey, social media, it's all conversations, and that's where things are going. Like we are gonna have more conversations, and it is worthwhile for me to better understand how do communications work in a in a business. Again, the more formal education. And what I the the bonus part of the education that I got that I didn't realize I was gonna get was being the only American in the class.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Um, I realized why we're disruptive very quickly. Um, but the the thing that I learned, I think, throughout the experience was um realizing what it means to work in the world. And I already knew that from at the time working at HP and um having partners in both Asia and the um in the UK, and what the time differences meant and what it meant to be um to them to work with American time. Um that was disruptive for them. And I think I saw it, and I and because I was the only American and most of the class was in Europe, I was the one who was on that receiving end.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's an interesting perspective to gain. I guess what did that teach you? What did that show you? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Um what it meant to not be in the main time zone of communication. Because we like to believe that, oh, we have this distributed virtual world. And yes, people do. The reality is there are time zones and people are working within a workday, right? Across the globe. And we're not always in a time frame for someone else's workday. And what does that mean with a conversation? Because sometimes my like I'd be in teams, they'd sometimes make a decision. I'd be fine with that, right? But I was like five hours behind. So I'm showing up when some when a lot of decisions were made or a lot of conversations happened. And I got to have that experience that as Americans, sometimes we do to other colleagues across the globe. And I know that that um I kind of knew some of this going into it, but after experiencing it more, um realizing that you do need to wait sometimes for your colleagues in another time zone to make that decision. Right. There are some decisions you cannot, you need them to bring them along.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

I and I know that it's not like within us to always want to put ourselves within the minority, but I honestly think for personal growth and professional growth purposes, the more you can put yourself in a room where you're the minority of that group, the better, because it's those insights and empathy that you're going to gain that helps you understand where other

Time Zones And Real Collaboration

SPEAKER_01 10:15

people are coming from for those nuanced micro situations that you just don't even consider because you get to take whatever for granted. So, yeah, I think that that's really, really interesting that you you've had that experience and that perspective. Let's talk a little bit about your consulting work and what you do. So, right now, like most well, most consultants kind of pick a lane. They either choose customer experience or employee experience. And you've always held both. What was there like a specific client or moment that made you see that these two worlds were really the same problem?

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Yeah. So I'm gonna say it started early in my career. It was my first job. My first real job, let's put it that way, right? Um, so I was working at a chemical engineering software company, and I know that sounds like very dry. And at times when I'd work in marketing, yes, it was. Right. I was caught actually napping, um, reading in Salescape. That's how dry it was. So um, so the when I first worked there, I was working within, they had a um a customer support call center. And all the people that worked there were like chemical engineers. Most of them had PhDs. And um they were helping different the customers that they had were like these chemical plants. And so they were helping them solve these problems that you know that that that lives are at stake, right? There's bottom lines, right? So they're doing some really big work. Um, well, there was one day, like there were some some challenges in the in the group. It wasn't necessarily the group at first wasn't necessarily known for its um its great customer experience, right? Like that we have there were a lot of efforts to improve the support metrics and all sorts of things like that. And everyone, again, I work it was the one of the um most brilliant teams I've ever worked with, right? Um, and everyone was everyone was great, management was great. It was just how do we bring this together? And there was one fine day that um the tensions rose, and there was a shift where two of the people disappeared because they were working on a problem and they left their post and they didn't answer the phone, and they left one poor support person to answer the phone for four hours. This guy got 19 calls. Oh goodness. Needless to say, after the shift ended, everything blew up. Everything blew up. So the next day, um, I was working with the managers because we were like trying to figure out what do we do, right? Because this is bad, right? Where this is we've hit that. So so we started um talking with all the different team members, and we called it the etiquette. It was kind of like our way to bring everyone together and what are the rules that we're gonna follow in the group? Like you can't just leave and go solve a problem. You have to check with the people in your shift. And this sounds so intuitively obvious, but it this way we all held each other accountable. And once we had this agreement amongst everyone in the team, right? Like you can't before you leave, check with everyone that everyone's good that you go, right? That how long you're gonna be gone, you can't be on longer for an hour. We set up all these rules and agreements, and um, the team followed them. And within, I'd say within not even months, um we were able to apply for an award, and they won. The team won. And so that's like such a testament to leadership coming together and the team coming together. So I kind of saw like their their support metrics, and then everyone trusted them more, the customers trusted them more. So that's where you can start to see how everything comes together to create that great customer experience.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

I love it. That's a great story and example. Let's shift over to the digital experience for a minute. Yes. It gets used often a lot, the phrase, um, more often than not, probably, especially in today's age. How do you define it? And how do you know when a company is actually has one versus just the kind of thinking that they do?

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yeah, yeah, I would agree. Um, that's that is um, you know, I think this gets to how companies view their businesses. And do they see them as um a back and forth with the customer, or is it just simply a transaction? And um I think I don't I don't think companies benefit from everything being so transactional. Um, I think we were talking earlier, right? Even in the research, right? Um, from what I've been reading, it's been going on for over 40 years in the research itself about the benefits of relationship marketing and building those connections, right? Um, because again, we're we're doing business with people, right? And people are buying a widget, um, but it they're having a relationship with the with the business or the people in the business. Um, and I think whatever happens offline does go to happen online, right? That gets a direct translation. And I think what makes a great digital experience is that you're able to accomplish a goal and you realize, like, hey, that helped me in my life. It's not like I was able to purchase and but I was able to get something done, and that helped me and that made my day better. Like, I think um, we'll just use as an example, let's say, um, what comes to mind right away is like Uber,

When Internal Etiquette Fixes CX

SPEAKER_02 15:45

right? And Uber's got a lot of problems. I'll just say that, right? There's a lot of challenges with the business model, there's a lot of challenges with how they're paying employees now. Um, but one thing that's great and why people keep using it is that you have that engagement and that interaction with the driver. And if it's a great experience, well, then you'll go back and use it again, right? Because they also get you to your destination. So it's kind of like it's not just that transaction, there's more. So um, do are companies necessarily doing that today? I don't think so. Um, I think that we see our customer experience stats are dropping year over year. Forrester tells us that. Um, but to bring it back up, I think it's companies need to remember they're doing business with people. B2B or B2C, it doesn't matter. People are involved, right? And so how do you connect with people so that they um they are able to engage with your business and not just complete what they need to complete?

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Yeah, it's so true. Because if you think about it too, like everybody's different skills, like level of skill set and understanding of digital experiences varies, but then a lot of thought doesn't really go into that. And then people are often coming to you if they're in a customer service situation where they're frustrated, which obviously, like when you're mad, your IQ drops. And then on top of that, like just even the standard, like outside of customer service, the standard digital experience. I mean, I don't know, I feel like we were paying a lot more attention to it 10 years ago. It was the of the utmost importance that everything was optimized for mobile and for ease of use. And now we have things like voice recognition and all of that, but somehow it seems like the experience has taken a back seat, and people think that chatbots and AI are like the answer for all of it. So I'm kind of curious, this is kind of a bonus question. Um, well, no, it's not. It's me skipping ahead and how AI is reshaping what digital experiences even mean. How are you thinking about that for your own work and for the clients who are looking to you for answers?

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah, I, you know, what you were raising, and I'll get back to the AI, right? Because we'll get to it. We were kind of talking about it um a little earlier as well, um, about stats and looking at the metrics and the and the analytics and the results. And um, use as an example. Um, I worked with one call center where they told me they thought their customers just didn't understand the field, that um they these customers um, you know, they weren't necessarily super qualified, right? And I got this whole story, and I'm like, you know, with a colleague, I'm like, what's this? Like, this doesn't make any sense. I'm like, for this particular field, you have to be licensed. You can't even use the software unless you have a license. So what is going on, right? And then when we looked at the metrics and the stats, come to find out people were calling for very complex, in-depth questions that took hours to solve, or they couldn't understand their billing, which honestly that was the feedback we got all along. So if if you're not really looking at the stats, or you're looking at the stats, but you're not really looking at the stats, right? And this is where I think uh my suspicion is that in a lot of cases, it when it comes to, let's say, phone systems, right? People are calling. That's why they always press zero. They want to talk to an agent. They want to talk to an agent because it's a complex problem. They would have solved it online if it wasn't. And yes, maybe maybe the FAQs are insufficient, maybe your knowledge base is insufficient, right? Um, what exactly are people looking to resolve? And this kind of gets to AI, like these are tools, right? And I also like even in conversations I'll have with clients or other people about, let's say, social media, right? Yes, social media, they have all sorts of gaming and all sorts of other things to get you into where they want to get you, right? And you just end up creating this ecosystem for yourself, right? But at the same time, it's a tool. Yeah, it is a tool, it it is and and these tools reflect reality. And right, so even with AI, it's a tool. Um, I get disturbed hearing how AI becomes people's friends. That's not what it is, right? Nope. Like AI is great to help with programming. AI can be great to um work with large pieces of data and rearrange it or analyze it or give you some output. I've used it to like, here's a bunch of data, give me a summary. And it does a pretty good job, right? But is it meant to necessarily help solve problems? I'll give um a kind of a casual example of there was an issue with my car, and I went and I used the chatbot on two separate occasions and two separate Google accounts, even to see what would happen. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I I'm kind of on the fence. Um, I think it's got some good uses, but it's a tool. So, what do you want to use it for? What do you want to achieve? What data are you using? What's your data set, right? Are you using the the web where people say, oh, there's conflicting answers? Have you been on the web in the past 10 years? It's a it's a company of noises and voices, and you've got to suss out what's a um a good, like what is um, let's say valid data, or what is something that has like let's say a like some sort of reputation. Um, you know, they've they've kind of pushed down academic data um or like some of them like to push up certain blogs, which sometimes I'm like, why are we referencing blogs? We should be referencing like what

Digital Experience Beyond Transactions

SPEAKER_02 21:20

is uh um you know valid insights, right? And it's it's coming from an academic institution, a publication, like something not, you know, my even then I my opinion is, you know, yeah. That's okay. I need data to prove it.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah, no, exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's it's hard to sometimes just understand. I think it's like this information overload aspect. And I think we're using AI to kind of shortcut some things. And I think, like you said, it's such good advice to think of it as like it's a tool, but it's not the replacement, it's not the replacement for. Decision making is not the replacement for common sense. You know, it's a tool. So use it, use it as such. Let's shift gears a little bit into how you work to also help leaders define and communicate their vision more clearly. In your experience, what gets in the way of that the most? And then is it like ego? Is it fear? Is it language? Is it something else entirely? Like what's holding them back?

SPEAKER_02 22:26

You know, I think it gets to acceptance of what's happening around. And this gets to looking at the stats and looking at the metrics and looking at what um at the data and information before you. And I think sometimes um in organizations will have ideas about what should be, but then you have what is. And I think to get to your vision, you do have to have a sense of what is, who are your customers really. Like you might have a good like idea of what you'd like them to be, but that doesn't mean that's who they are. So I, you know, I think it kind of um that's what I kind of take all the time. Like I I will accept what they're saying about where they want to be, but this is this is where we're starting. So let's see how we get there.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

It is really interesting too, because I think we fall short of that as marketers too. We're always looking at the audience we want versus the audience we have. And instead of trying to expand upon the existing audience that we actually have, it's always the aspirational audience that we're chasing after. It's always that avatar. But it's like, why aren't you maximizing the existing people that are here in that? Because those are your real audience members. It might not be as sexy as you want, it might not be as idealized as you want, but that's the reality. And I think I hate to say it, but the brands who've done it best, i.e. like Walmart, like they get it. They get their customer and they provide the prices and they don't do sales and they don't do coupons, but they still get seen as cheap. And it's like one of those things where I could go and spend the same amount on groceries as another grocery store, but it's that whole mentality. They understand their customers to that degree. And so yeah, it actually serves you really well to know your customer well and to just kind of own it rather than try to like be like, Walmart, let's just try to do like a bougie end of the store, you know, we're gonna try to go a target, like it's never gonna happen, you know, because it's a different audience altogether. And I think the brands that have embraced their audiences are the ones that kind of come out on top. So I think what you're onto there makes a whole lot of sense when you're coming from a space of trying to create and cast your vision clearly. Um, I think you need to face the reality of what it is that you're looking at and what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

You know, and and to add to what you were saying, like your customers, like when you look at who your customers are, like they're craving for that connection. I I think I have had more conversations with like customers, patients, and medical systems, all sorts of people. And they all have the same thing. They want to meet each other, they want to engage with the organization. They all do. And I like like you said, like Walmart understands also how to connect to their customers, right? That is what most of the big bigger brands they understand who these people are and how do you connect with them and how do you engage with them? And yes, you have your aspirational, but your customers, like what is it? What do they say always say? Like 80% of your like the next round of business usually comes from your existing customers. It's not from the new. Like you do have churn, yes, but most of it is from the same, it's from your base.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Well, and then Marketing 101 says that, you know, what is it to cost 10 times as much to get a new customer as it does to maintain an existing, and yet we'll just ignore the existing and keep looking at the grease the grass on the other side to see if it's greener, you know, always keeping our options open.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

And it can serve to your um to a company's detriment, because then these people feel like the the base feels neglected. And so then your churn will go up, right? Because you're not get you're not helping them solve the problem that they have. You know, there there's a um there there's a theory, what is it? Um, peak end rule, right? And I always find it interesting because it applies to customer service, because I find customer service fascinating, right? Because people don't call you because they're happy, they call you because they have a problem, right? Yeah. And and so They're not calling just a chat. What do you mean?

unknown 26:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

And I always find it fascinating. Like it's just stunning to me. To me, it's like the biggest paradox, right? Customers are calling because they're they're upset and they're aggravated. And if you solve that problem and you make them feel special in that moment, because they only remember the end and the most emotional part of the conversation, right? So if you make that emotional instead of like, oh, I hate you, but oh, I love you because you solved my problem and you make these two things like the end, uh, and then you stay and you you're singing that company's praises. To me, that's the biggest paradox because if the company did a problem, like they did a

AI, Data Quality, And Real Problems

SPEAKER_02 27:10

something disastrous and you stay with them. To me, that's fascinating, right? Because there's it's not a lot, it doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Yeah, right. And it's not like there's not a million choices. I think there's something too that's inextricably tied to you know, customer experience and internal experience, right? Because if the internal experience, if your employees are not happy, like that's the core of your business. And if they're not happy and not in a good place, that bleeds out into the customer experience because it comes through in like, I mean, every little detail, not just the customer experience, but the digital experience as well, because they're not committed to making it the best possible because they don't give a shit. Because they're not happy because they've quite quit 10 months ago, you know, things like that. We just don't think about. Um, so obviously a lot of our listeners on the on on the listening right now, you know, so they're there's a lot of resource limitations right now. We've talked about like supply chain issues and shortages and things like that. They're we're kind of all under a tremendous amount of pressure on teams. What is it costing organizations in concrete terms when the internal experience is broken and no one's naming it? Because that just sort of feels like one of the bigger, heavier things, kind of like the elephant in the room that's sitting in every meeting room outside of all the other things I just said that are happening in the world and affecting business.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

So if um we'll go back to the example earlier in my career and I'll bring that forward to different things I've seen, but let's we can start there. Um, when I first worked with the team before we had that meltdown day, um they were struggling to get customers to pay for support. They weren't offering a great experience, people didn't really trust them, right? The customers didn't. Um, so it just it it um it didn't help make it worthwhile for someone to buy the software. But once they started winning awards, suddenly people, you know, it is a spark to buy, right? To make that purchase because it is, you know, that if you have a problem, someone will help you and you can trust in that. Um I would say I see this in almost every organization that if you don't um make it a great place to work, we can use an example like Zappos, right? So Zappos was a wonderful like place to work. I am not so sure now because of where it's falling, right? But um, when it was first out, that was like the case study, right? Great place to work. They treated customers great, they made money hand over fist because everyone was happy and wanted, like you said, they wanted to put forward like the best experience possible to engage with customers because they saw, you know, I think companies forget that we're that companies are made of people, right? Customers are people, your employees are people, and um without customers, the lights don't stay on. We don't like to say that, right? Which I find fascinating, right? And and I think even shareholders know that if your customers aren't happy, the lights don't stay on. And if your employees aren't happy, they're not doing things to keep customers coming back, and it's just an ecosystem. And I think that's one of the things that um I did get a sense more of a sense of being in like a business school in Europe versus in the US. In the US, it's very money focused, right? In Europe, we were all taught about ecosystems, like it was almost exhausting by the end, right? Everything's an ecosystem, right? And when you look at it that way, you make different decisions and you realize the connection between the ecosystem and the bottom line. And I would say I think another good one um example would be like the Apple um app store. And we could also say the Google App Store, right? Because you have a developer community, you have the customers, you have the uh the employees, right? And you have to keep that in harmony so everyone's contributing. Customer data comes in, right? The developers use it, Apple uses it. Same with Google, the same thing is happening with Google too, right? Everyone's using the data, and then you have success because everyone's contributing, right? Um, if you don't have venues for that and a way to respect everyone and want that contribution, you you you exclude people, and exclusion means no. I hate to say it, exclusion means no money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

I mean, I think it should be boiled down to that because yeah, we should also say on the flip side, inclusion equals money, people. The numbers tell us. Yes. Oh, goodness.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

We've been having this conversation for 40 years.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Anyway, I know, right? And we keep on have just keep on beating that drama, Mary. All right. So this this episode is called the Art of Acceptance, and that phrase means something specific to you and the work that you do. What does acceptance actually look like as a business strategy or a leadership practice, which is a great segue from our inclusion?

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So um how I kind of got here, I originally wanted to write a book about listening. To me, listening is what it's the core to my work. If I didn't have um, if I didn't have good listening skills, I I wouldn't have make it, I wouldn't have clients, right? That's just the way it is, right? Um, so I started writing this book and um I'm like, oh my God, I'm just pontificating and it's boring. And I was reading and going, oh my God, who'd want to read this? So I'm like, there has to be something more to this. So I I sat on it for a long time actually, like, what's going on? When I'm listening, what's really happening? And what keeps coming to mind was this was a while back when I first moved to Dallas. I went to the farmer's market and I met this woman who was selling like all these pickled good items, right? And I didn't know her from Adam, right? So she's a brand new person, right? And I and she's she uh has all these little tasting things, right? And I I try some stuff, I'm like, wow, that's really good. And she starts sharing her life story, and she got really in depth. And part of me was like, why is she sharing the story with me? Right, what's what's going on? And I started realizing from there I like heard other people's lives, life stories. And I started realizing it's because I'm accepting them. I'm not looking at them like you're crazy or I don't think it's true. Like it's just you're it I'm accepting what's being told to me, right? And and this kind of gets to my favorite proverb, right? Um, where you know, this you have this farmer and his horse runs away, and the

Acceptance As Leadership Practice

SPEAKER_02 34:05

village goes, you know, oh, that's terrible, and he goes, you know, let's see, right? And then the the he that horse brings a bunch of horses back, and everyone goes, Oh, that's so great. And he goes, Oh, let's see, right? And then he goes to the the his the farmer's um kid, tries to train a horse, he breaks his leg, oh that's terrible, right? Then he doesn't get put in the military because of the broken leg, right? And it's kind of like not reading into stuff, and that's what I started realizing, like you can't, and and I I kind of find as a leadership strategy, it makes leading so much lighter, yeah, and so much more fun. Because you're not sitting there trying to analyze why is this team member not doing you, just have the conversation, yeah, right? And just go, I don't understand. Like, and yes, I walk around perpetually confused all day. I swear, everyone I go into meetings and I just go, I don't understand, or I'm confused. And I swear everyone's wonders, how does she exist? That's all I say. I don't understand, but you know what? It's easier and it's not my business to try to figure out what everybody's, you know, what what they're thinking. Like let's just take people as they are, as they arrive, um, and not try to read into it and just accept what they're doing and showing us, and accept what they're showing us, right? That's the next key to this, right? That's the next part of it for sure. Um, you know, um, because I d have had um management and leadership situations where I had to accept what was being told to me. And yeah, it's not so great.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Sucky. Yeah. No, I do. I've heard that proverb, the maybe story of where, like, yeah, it's like maybe, maybe. And oftentimes we do. We tend to put narratives to things where there is no narrative, and that actually reduces opportunity. It makes us maybe pass on those things. It also kind of reminds me of the first time I got to hear Brene Brown speak before she kind of made it big. Um, I was at a how design conference, I want to say in like 20, well, I guess it would have been like 2014, 2015. And she was talking about like a coworker at the university where she was doing research in Texas, and she was talking about doing her research in shame and she was pitching it. And the woman who was with her was on her phone and just messaging and not paying attention. And Brene was so pissed off at her and was like, she just got something out for me. It's just because I'm another woman. She doesn't want me to be successful. And she just went home and was like bitching to her husband about it and all this stuff. And she sat down that night and she wrote her this scathing email about how rude she was and how inconsiderate she was. And the woman wrote back, like, I am incredibly sorry. I really should have canceled that meeting. The reason I was on my phone is because our family dog had been hit by a car and we had to have the make the decision to put him down in that moment. I should have just put my phone down and told you what was happening and walked out of the room and saved the meeting for later. So Britain obviously felt like a big old jerk. But it's funny how one person's situation, losing a family pet to this other person just looked like outright refusal to listen and to pay attention and to be present. But how easy would it have been to just be like, listen, I'm having this moment and I really need a time. I need to reschedule this. Or even for Brene to look at her and say, you know what, something feels off here. I don't feel like you're really into what I'm talking about right now. Is this not the right time versus making the assumption, assuming and then, you know, sort of accepting the situation for what it is versus putting a narrative to it?

SPEAKER_02 37:33

Yes, exactly. Like you, like you j exactly that. Yes. It it's um, you know, I think this the I'm glad you brought up that example. Um, because this kind of gets to virtual meetings. And I'll just do this to this. This is an example I use in the book, is like virtual meetings, right? And and there are moments that there'll be discussions and it's hard to get a word in edgewise. I think we've all been where we're like, oh my goodness, like will someone take a break, right? And and you know, that can get misinterpreted on so many levels. And you know, I I think one of the the gaps in organizations, there really should be facilitators at in these calls to pay attention to what's happening in the room. Um, because you know, people sometimes I think they're all like they don't intend to do certain things unless you start seeing a pattern, right? Now that's completely different. If you're observing a pattern, that's different. But let's say um, you know, someone just keep keeps talking, there's anxiety issues. Um we don't realize um the US is incredibly and it's an incredibly anxious country, yeah. And anxiety can come out in so many different ways. That you know, people I I've noticed oh over talking, like like again, oh my god, take a break. But just it, you know, it how how do you, if you can, try to have a facilitator or just try to be mindful.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And then I think acceptance too. I mean, you were talking earlier, your example about time zone difference, you know, just being more accepting and understanding there, having some empathy, thinking about what it's like on the other side, showing people some grace. I think that's another thing too. Oftentimes, like we've got our standards up so high. And I mean, everybody wants to be considered. I don't think people most people come in on to calls or meetings and they're like, oh, I'm just gonna make everybody pissed. No, like it's just there's always something else happening. It kind of also reminds me of um kind of like that practice of whenever um somebody cuts you off in traffic or does something rude. I just I can usually, I used to get so mad, but now I'm like, I can let that go. Like honestly, I can let that go. Like there, there is something else on their mind, or they're on their phone, or they're just doing their like they're in their whole own little world. And I'm not saying it's an excuse. It's just saying this is not something I can control right now. All I can control is how I respond.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. The world is bigger. And that's I think accepting accepting that that it's um, you know, I think a challenging line we've been we've been fed is like the idea that the world works for you. And I found it light, it lightened my load to let that go. Yeah. Like, no, it doesn't. Yeah.

unknown 40:27

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

It's just there. And you're doing what you can and trying to get through it, and so is everyone else in there.

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Like you said, like the yeah. We're all just out here trying to survive. Just a little more acceptance and understanding. Give give yourself and everyone else a little bit of grace.

unknown 40:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

All right. So when you're walking into like a new client engagement, what is it that you're trying to understand before any strategy or deliverable comes into that space? Is there like a question that you always like to ask that tends to crack things open? Like what helps you sort of get to the nitty-gritty of maybe what um they might be struggling with?

SPEAKER_02 41:09

Yeah, before I go in, what I've found, um what I've found lately is to make sure I check out their LinkedIn profile a little bit. Right. Um, some or or I hear through the grave find who someone is, right? Um and then I'll listen and let them kind of drive the conversation. Um because you know, they might um what the what often what I get called in to do isn't what needs to be done. Right. There is a um there is a bit of a misdiagnosis of the problem,

Listening Signals And Closing Takeaways

SPEAKER_02 41:50

right? Or they think they know what the problem is, and then when you start listening, it might be a different problem. Or that is one of the many problems that need to be resolved, right? Like there's other things happening. So how do you how do you get that right? And so I listen a lot. I I I try to just uh basically understand their situation more.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Love it. All right, we're coming up to our last question, then we'll go into the power round. If you could leave every woman in our audience um one shift, then how they could see themselves or their work, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02 42:27

Accept yourself and make sure that you're happy with what you're doing and what your output is. I think there's so much pressure now. And it's not for perfection, right? Like one thing I notice, especially with the with the rise of AI, is um a lack of quality. And so if you're producing something that you think is high quality, right, and I think everybody should do that. Like it doesn't have to be perfect, but you're pretty happy with the quality of it. Like, um, in general, I know when I with writing, I want to be sure it sounds pretty good, right? Um, grammatically correct. Um when I do out like when I create a presentation um after a study, um, you know, to document the study and present findings. Um, how does this sound? Does it sound pretty good? Is it presenting some good insights? Can they do something with this, right? And make sure I'm happy with it. Um and I think at times we're in this whole like you know, fail fast and all that nonsense. Like let's try. Let's try. Let's do it. Let's put our like let's try to put our best foot forward. Sure. Not our perfect foot, our best foot.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Yeah. No, that makes sense. Awesome. All right, Mary, I'm gonna go into the power round now. Okay, these are kind of quick rapid fire question answers. Um, one thing you have had to practice um accepting that surprised you.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

That in I think it's been more in the past few years, but how in the world we all don't share the same values. And we like to assume, and I didn't realize how much I did this. Um, we like to assume that we all share the same values. No, we don't. No, we don't. And it's not that um and once it's hard to accept, especially certain people close to you that you might want to think, oh yeah, we're all the same. No, no, no, no. Right. And once you accept that, the world becomes a very different place. And it's not a scary place, it's just a different place. Um and um a lot of the world becomes a lot clearer.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Yeah. For seeing it for what it really is. Trust the data. Yeah, trust what they're showing you. Believe it, they're gonna show you, believe it. All right, finish this sentence. The most underrated leadership skill is listening. Listening and acceptance. And on that note, what's one sign that somebody is truly listening to you?

SPEAKER_02 45:03

That's a great question. Um you know thinking about this and looking at like being out out in the world and you know, all this stuff, I would say it this is gonna sound weird because we we're always told do the act of listening and repeat back, blah blah blah. Right. And and I've been in so many situations where the person repeated back. No, they didn't even mean like I repeated it back, and no, no, I didn't. You know what? It's the emotional engagement, and I'm gonna say that it's the emotional contagion and feeling that sense of emotion with other people. You know, there's actually um to share it, there's there's this, there's this theory, um, Randall Collins, and he did this interaction um ritual chain theory. And an example that he that he highlights a lot is um smokers. I know it's terrible, right? But but anyone who who has been a smoker, right, they've they know when you go out to smoke, you all have that in common and you do have some type of emotional connection. It's more of a solidarity, it's not like you're besties, right? But you have that solidarity. Um, and I would say when you're in a meeting and there always is an emotional contagion. I think we don't like to talk about that. We like to think, oh, we're in business, we're so rational. Bottom line result. And again, like we share all the same values of what that looks like, right? To some it's a it's a profit, to some it's a revenue, to some it's market share, right? That's not the same. But if we can leave feeling like we can do this and we're excited, and we're happy to be here, and we're happy to work with each other. I feel like, you know, that's as odd as this sounds. Like I think people leave those meetings and they they listen to something, they heard something in those moments.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

I love that. All right. My last question then that I have is one word that describes what acceptance has given you. Peace. Yeah, that's a good one. I agree, I agree. Love acceptance. Um, I have like a whole talk that I did on mindfulness that's um, you know, it's yield to overcome, it's impermanence, it's like um I'm trying to remember, I there was like four or five different parts of it, but a lot of it was acceptance and um acceptance of outcome or allowing just outcome to be what it needs to be and all that kind of stuff. There's an absolute freedom to all of that. So what a great word, acceptance. We appreciate it, Mary, and all of your amazing insights and your studies and your research. I'm so excited. Please keep in touch. Um, I want to hear how everything goes with your research and you're getting your PhD. We'll be calling you Dr. Brody when you come back to maybe share some more about that and what your insights are for now. What are some of the best ways that our listeners can get a hold of you if they want to talk more?

SPEAKER_02 47:49

I'm sure. Um, you can reach me through email, M F Brody, M is in Mary, F is and Frank, B-R-O-D-I-E at GearMark.com. I am also on LinkedIn. Um, Mary Brody, you can find me. Um, I'd say those are the the best ways. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Well, thank you so much, Mary. This has been fantastic. Such a grounding and generous conversation. Thank you for reminding us that some of the most strategic work we can do is leaders is also the most human. It's great. Wonderful. All right, everyone. Yeah, we appreciate you all. If today's uh conversation resonated with you, this is exactly the kind of dialogue we create every week inside Together Digital, a community of women who show up for each other in every stage of the journey. So whether you're just figuring things out, you're feeling a little stuck, ready to scale, or already soaring, um, you're going to find your people here. So again, you can find us at togetherindigital.com. We'd love to have you all. And until next time, everyone, keep asking, keep giving, and keep growing. We'll see you soon.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

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